Ready To Throw My Columbia BF Out The Window...

[phonojim]

I agree with Bob that your governor springs don't look matched. Replace them before going any further. I would replace them before going any further with this project.
I wouldn't be worried about Ron's quality control. The springs are very likely die cut and punched just as the originals would have been, which means that they all match. Clock makers and repairmen do it that way and it's easier and faster once you have the tooling made. I have used Ron's governor springs on a few occasions and they appear to be exact duplicates of originals.

Jim

[MicaMonster]

All four governor springs have to be IDENTICAL. I put a "C" pre-bend in them after attaching weights, and this gives a nice pre-loaded "bow" to them. If you install springs FLAT, they can reverberate, which is nasty Nasty NASTY.

To drive my point home, run the governor with only TWO weights on it. Both weights and springs identical. Voilla.

If 3 of the 4 springs are identical, it will be out of balance.

-W

[barnettrp21122]

All four governor springs have to be IDENTICAL. I put a "C" pre-bend in them after attaching weights, and this gives a nice pre-loaded "bow" to them. If you install springs FLAT, they can reverberate, which is nasty Nasty NASTY.

To drive my point home, run the governor with only TWO weights on it. Both weights and springs identical. Voilla.

If 3 of the 4 springs are identical, it will be out of balance.

-W

Do you mean to complete the project with only two weights/springs, or testing them in pairs, swapping them out, or am I misunderstanding something? Thanks!
Bob

[Phonofreak]

Doug, I just came home and read all the posts, so far. I really think that you should change ALL the governor springs. Don't look in your "boneyard" for old springs. They would be mismatched. Spend the few dollars and get the springs from Ron. I rebuilt the governor on my 2/4 min. BET, using all new governor springs and weight. The machine runs perfectly. Also, check the bearings like I said before.
Harvey Kravitz

[Lucius1958]

I also think that it is a good idea to replace the governor springs.

I have noticed the same flutter problem on my BF. I attributed it to a loose weight or two, and tightened them as best I could, but the flutter has not been eliminated. I should try replacing both the weights and springs, myself.

Bill

[FellowCollector]

Thanks so much for all of your helpful input and suggestions.

I ordered 8 new Columbia governor springs from Ron Sitko last evening. He suggested installing the weights snugly on the governor spring and leave the end screws loosely. Then make sure all are in perfect alignment and finally tightening them down.

But on the BF Columbia, the single speed control arm is in the way and I can see no screw to loosen it so that it can be dropped to allow a finished governor assembly to be installed. So I have been installing the weights and ONE end screw each for the governor springs and then maneuvering the governor around that dang speed control arm. Oh well.

I asked why he thought the little square washers on original governor springs were used by Columbia instead of round ones we use today and he had no idea why. To be honest I have no idea why washers (round or square) on the governor springs are needed anyway if one tightens the ends down sufficiently. When the governor springs arrive here I will first stack 4 of them one on top of the other and confirm that all 3 holes are all in perfect alignment AND the center holes for the weights are perfectly dead on center.

I sure hope the new governor springs smooth my BF out so that it plays as nice and smooth as it should. I'm really, really looking forward to playing a 4 minute Blue Amberol cylinder on my very first Columbia 2/4 minute Graphophone. It plays a 4 minute cylinder now but with the awful flutter it sounds pretty crappy.

All the years I have been collecting I have never found a 2/4 minute Columbia in spite of the many different Columbia cylinder models I own. I have never attended a phono show either so what I have in the collection was found 'hunting in the wild' or at auctions.

This particular Columbia BF also came with a Columbia Recorder too - but I have not had a chance to carefully examine the cutting stylus (which is present!) to determine whether it is 4 minute or 2 minute Recorder but I'm guessing it is a 2 minute Recorder as it's doubtful they ever made a 4 minute Recorder even though this is a very late BF.

Doug

[OrthoSean]

I don't think I saw this mentioned here yet, but one other thing when replacing the springs - when you're tightening them down, tighten down one side first. I'd personally go for the side blocked by the speed arm you mention. Once that's done, wind the motor up some and let it run for a couple of minutes with the other side loose, not totally loose, but just enough for the springs and weights to balance themselves. Tighten the other side down after you've done this and you've at least now got a balanced governor. This little trick has helped me out many times!

Good luck!

Sean

[FellowCollector]

Thanks for your input, Sean! I'll give your idea a try. The springs should arrive tomorrow (I hope). If the new governor springs (all punched exactly the same and installed by me correctly!) fix the flutter issue on this Columbia BF then I'm going to try the same trick on my 2 minute Columbia BF as well as a few other B series Columbia cylinder machines in the collection that I concluded as being hopeless "flutterers" and therefore seldom play!

Doug

[Phonofreak]

Doug, to remove the governor, first make sure the motor is WOUND down. I'm sure you know that. Remove the large pulley. That will allow clearance to get to the bearing. Loosen and slide out the left bearing. Then do the same to the right bearing. Once the bearings clear the governor shaft, the governor should come out. It may take some gentle wiggling, but it will come out. It will be much easier than wrestling rebuilding the governor in the motor. The reason there are washers with the screws is to distribute the pressure on the springs when tightened. If this is not done, the little ends can break off in time, or when being installed. Let us know how things work out when you get the parts from Rom.
Harvey Kravitz

[Victrolacollector]

All great answers here.

My experience with a lot of these problems is the governor springs. I own a Columbia BK, it is probably the best 2 minute cylinder player that I own (I also have a Edison Home B 2/4; a few Q's). My BK did have some flutter, I retained the old original weights, it seems nothing can substitute those old weights. I replaced all of the governor springs with new ones from George Vollema.

What I did notice is that you must make certain that all springs are seated exactly in alignment. If one weight or the ends are screwed down out of alignment, you may notice flutter. Another problem, I was restoring my Columbia Q, and noticed that it was skipping, after swapping parts, I found out that the problem was the belt which had a lump in it. I replaced the belt and now no skipping.

I would make sure the governor springs are new and correctly aligned and install a new belt and loop it so that the belt tensioner is in use.

It is easier to locate most Columbia, Victor and Edison governor springs, but make sure that they are good quality, I have used some that bend like pop can aluminum.