Unusual Wooden Horn - and Gramophone

[Steve]

Has anyone noted that the speed regulator arrow and bezel are from a Decca "trench" portable?

I don't know if it's even a frankenphone. A crap-o sure it ain't. Perhaps it's a home-made "gramophone of the gramophones" with a mix & match of original parts, as Mr. Winsleydale on this board is planning to do.

The wooden horn, however, looks superb and I would also pay big bucks for it alone.

I agree with everything you've said, Carlos, but on the other hand it does beg the question of who the Crapophones / Frankenphones are aimed at? I have seen literally thousands of Crapophones so someone somewhere must be making them for a market, however cheap they might be. The question remains, where is that market and what kind of person is buying the fake gramophones in such high numbers to justify the production scales?

Well, the answer is easy, Steve. I personally know at least a half dozen persons that bought a crap-o to display in their living room. When I first detect a crap-o in somenone's house I always do my best to completely ignore it and I pray the Lord and all Saints that may nobody else jump on the subject, revealing that I'm some kind of expert on the matter or a sort of collector. But in most cases (actually I think all cases) I've found out that the owners already knew that their crap-o-s were "fantasy machines"; most of them said they were sold to them as such; they liked it nonetheless and think that the fact that they could actually play a record was amusing.

Crap-o-s have been consistently aired on italian TV serials. Since 2000 onward there has been basically no TV show set in the belle époque or even the '30s where one or two crap-o-s are not displayed.

As odd as it may sounds, I also know some tobacconists - those with an "extended" shop that also sells pipes, playing cards, dices and other gadgets - that have for sale in their shrinee some reproductions of cylinder phonographs, with imitation decal and all. I think (but I'm not sure) that these don't really play any cylinder, but are inteded as plain ornaments.

The last crap-o that crossed my road was this July, in a record shop (I mean a 45s and 33 RPMs shop). Believe it or not after only few hours of display in the shrine a passer-by offered 150 € for it. As the seller is a very serious and honest man and was himself suspicious of the gramophone, he asked me an opinion about it and - possibly - to teach him how to tell a crap-o from a McCoy. It was the super-standard-crap-o by the way, the one with the hexagon base. I could list to him no less than 20 blatant counterfeit details, but could go ahead for another half hour with lesser details. Nonetheless, the day after the crap-o was sold as an "imitation" and proudly displayed in someone's living room.

So: yes, there obviously is a florid market for crap-o-s.

Thanks for the story, Marco, it made me laugh and did go some way to answering my question. So there is a great market for a "novelty" or "horn gramophone" specifically but how many of these potential customers would acually prefer / buy an original machine if they were given the opportunity? Is there a financial cut-off point or price limit to this display / novelty item? How many Crapophone owners could potentially be turned onto collecting the real McCoy?

I don't think the speed control is from a Decca per se, as Decca machines used different motors and invariably Swiss made motors in the early days. These are generic parts that can be found in many different machines, not just portables.

[Marco Gilardetti]

Steve, I think that, in most cases, yes: crap-o buyers would go for an original item if only they could. But an original external horn usually goes for TWENTY times as much as a crap-o, and the casual buyer would never - for any reason - pay so much for it. He is not so much into gramophones to open his wallet that wide, and at a high risk of being cheated by the way.

Not even to mention the fact that "extarnal horners" are nearly impossible (and you can delete the "nearly", if you want) to find in Italy, as well as in other european countries. They are "scarce" but to some extent "available" in UK and in Germany, but basically you can tour flea markets for your entire life and the next without ever finding one elsewhere in Europe (see a very recent post about flea markets in Paris!).

Horn gramophones are, simply put, awfully rare and outrageously costly. Crap-o-s are cheap, shining new and readily available. That's enough for most of their customers to buy one and look no further.

I really don't judge them, because actually I understand them. I can be considered a regular gramophone user since the very early '80s and to some extent a "collector" since the year 2000. But although I've always had a regular job and a regular salary, I could locate and afford my first external horn only one year ago. It's been a struggle to find one in good conditions, at a reasonable price in line with valuations, and of course I had to import it (from Austria). It gave me financial troubles for many months thereafter. And I'm still gasping after my first cylinder phonograph, which are not given out for free as well. So it's really a purchase reserved for hardcore enthusiasts, for motivated, almost addicted people. I really wouldn't recommend it to anybody else. A crap-o is more than enough for the man on the corner.

We might argue that for the same price of a faux crap-o they could have had an authentic portable gramophone that, aside of being a true antique item, would play way way better than whichever crap-o. Personally I fully agree with this point of view, and as a matter of fact, being unable to afford an external horn, I concentrated myself on portables for years. But what can you say to someone who wants a big big brass horn in his living room and cares little to nothing about sound quality or authenticity? Nothing, really. Let him live happy with his crap-o, I say.

[Marco Gilardetti]

Back to the point, I agree that most probably dials and bezels as well as other parts were not directly manufactured by Decca and may be common to other makes. Still, they're typical of Decca and I don't remember ever seeing one on a gramophone with HMV/Victor arm or similar. Here is a Decca example in which the speed control is sufficiently visible:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4052/4717 ... 73b3_b.jpg

[epigramophone]

As has already been pointed out, the speed control is not by Decca. It is by Paillard, as shown in this G.A.Bryan Ltd mid-1920's catalogue.

Paillard supplied components to a number of manufacturers, notably Decca in the UK and Sonora in the USA, and some of these components were stocked by trade suppliers such as G.A.Bryan Ltd for many years.

[Steve]

Steve, I think that, in most cases, yes: crap-o buyers would go for an original item if only they could. But an original external horn usually goes for TWENTY times as much as a crap-o, and the casual buyer would never - for any reason - pay so much for it. He is not so much into gramophones to open his wallet that wide, and at a high risk of being cheated by the way.

Not even to mention the fact that "extarnal horners" are nearly impossible (and you can delete the "nearly", if you want) to find in Italy, as well as in other european countries. They are "scarce" but to some extent "available" in UK and in Germany, but basically you can tour flea markets for your entire life and the next without ever finding one elsewhere in Europe (see a very recent post about flea markets in Paris!).

Horn gramophones are, simply put, awfully rare and outrageously costly. Crap-o-s are cheap, shining new and readily available. That's enough for most of their customers to buy one and look no further.

I really don't judge them, because actually I understand them. I can be considered a regular gramophone user since the very early '80s and to some extent a "collector" since the year 2000. But although I've always had a regular job and a regular salary, I could locate and afford my first external horn only one year ago. It's been a struggle to find one in good conditions, at a reasonable price in line with valuations, and of course I had to import it (from Austria). It gave me financial troubles for many months thereafter. And I'm still gasping after my first cylinder phonograph, which are not given out for free as well. So it's really a purchase reserved for hardcore enthusiasts, for motivated, almost addicted people. I really wouldn't recommend it to anybody else. A crap-o is more than enough for the man on the corner.

We might argue that for the same price of a faux crap-o they could have had an authentic portable gramophone that, aside of being a true antique item, would play way way better than whichever crap-o. Personally I fully agree with this point of view, and as a matter of fact, being unable to afford an external horn, I concentrated myself on portables for years. But what can you say to someone who wants a big big brass horn in his living room and cares little to nothing about sound quality or authenticity? Nothing, really. Let him live happy with his crap-o, I say.

You make some very interesting points here and I agree with all of what you've said. It's also interesting to see the perspective from Italy and I sense your frustration with the market over there. If it's any consolation to you the UK is not exactly a hot bed of activity either. It is becoming increasingly difficult to get good horn machines over here and for someone like me who doesn't live in the most blessed part of the country, it is also impossible to locate anything "in the wild". Let me put it another way, in over 25 years I've never seen a genuine horn machine for sale (apart from made-up junk, Crapophones etc) at an antique fair, flea market, garage / car boot sale, collectors fair etc. They do turn up from time to time in (for me) far flung auction rooms but as these are usually the only gramophones for sale at the time, the focus is very much fixed on them and with the internet bidding these are invariably expensive items and frustratingly hard to pin down in terms of condition without trecking across country to view each one - the auctioneers are usually unreliable and predictably clueless as they have ZERO interest in gramophones.

Most horn machines in my collection have been imported by me from overseas OR bought at the "going rate" by increasingly unreliable "specialist dealers" over here. There have been a few collections for sale over here in the past 10 years but without exception they have been quite dismal in terms of content and condition. There is a machine for sale on Ebay at the moment and the photos are sadly typical of how a lot of machines are kept over here by "collectors" who have partners who do not share their interest.

[phonogfp]

Not to completely hijack this thread, but my heart goes out to you fellows in Europe and the UK. You paint a pretty dismal picture of the phonograph collecting potential over there, and it must seem as though North America is Never Land with its abundance of these items.

You've made me more grateful to live where I do!

I hope you buck the odds and soon find a reasonably-priced treasure in the wild.

George P.

[CarlosV]

I hope you buck the odds and soon find a reasonably-priced treasure in the wild.

George P.

George, explanation is simple: much smaller market, total of machines sold in Europe being much smaller than in the US, added to two wars that ravaged most European countries, gramophones being one of the least relevant casualties. Other than nuts like me, I don't imagine anyone venturing into a burning house amid an air raid to save a gramophone...
It is not impossible however to find good stuff here, it is just much more difficult, I recall two occasions in my case, one of them I had to drive for 9 hours to southwest France because the owner of the French lumière inherited from his father did not know how to pack it safely, in another the driving was shorter to a village near Stutgart in Germany, but I risked coming back empty-handed because the guy could not identify what he had, I had a hunch it was a nice Pathé, and I hit the spot and drove back with a very nice model A and a couple of huge half-meter discs. Sounds nice, but this is what I could find "in the wild" in about 10 years of collecting. Otherwise, like Steve, my sources are abroad, mostly in the US, it was great to import a brand new Victor schoolhouse from Rafael, one Columbia 810 in great shape from a East Coast collector (by far the largest in my collector if I don't count the horn of my EMG), an excellent Credenza etc. Clearly the US is the heaven for gramophone collectors. I get envy-green looking at the photos of the frequent gatherings and swap meetings that you guys sadistically post...

[Steve]

George, you're quite right and we do appreciate your sympathy even if, as Carlos has already said, I would completely agree with him that you guys are sadistic, regularly taunting us with your rows of superb machines at regular fairs and phono events!

The US is definitely a Phono H(e)aven!

[estott]

Has anyone noted that the speed regulator arrow and bezel are from a Decca "trench" portable?

The Decca machines used Swiss parts from Palliard, that speed control also appears on Sonora machines which also bought from Palliard.

[Retrograde]

George, you're quite right and we do appreciate your sympathy even if, as Carlos has already said, I would completely agree with him that you guys are sadistic, regularly taunting us with your rows of superb machines at regular fairs and phono events!

The US is definitely a Phono H(e)aven!

Well it's a little bittersweet... some of those shows and fairs with rows of machines are 1500 miles or more away from some of us. Might as well be on another continent.