Considering to purchase an HMV 163

[bart1927]

Hello everybody.

I'm considering to buy an HMV 163. A dealer I know has one for sale, and he's asking EUR 1500 for. I'm not unfamiliar with phonographs, I also have an HMV 101, 102 and 130. Apart from the usual stuff such as pot metal issues with the reproducer and hardened graphite grease, are there any other things I should look for?

[US PHONO]

You should look for a better deal, price seems rather high?

[bart1927]

You should look for a better deal, price seems rather high?

That's what I thought, but over here in the Netherlands they're much more expensive than in the UK. There like maybe 2 or 3 dealers in the entire country. I also check Marktplaats (our version of Craigslist) and Ebay on a regular basis, but so far with zero result.

[Odeon]

1500.-€ seems to be a little bit expensive - even for the european market. If you really want it NOW, buy it. But, insist on a inspection of the gramophone locally before you handle money to the dealer. Thats no low-budget deal for a 163... If you have time, wait one or two years and buy an better offer below this price. Just my two cents...

[Marco Gilardetti]

Personally I would never pay such a price for an internal horn machine. But of course it depends on how deeply you desire to own that specific machine. Believe me when I say that I perfectly understand your feeling that you may never come across another machine like that locally. I understand you in full and you're perfectly right. But, on the other hand, if you were not specifically looking for a HMV 163 but for a floor gramophone in general, perhaps you should let it pass over. It's really pricey.

However, should you decide to go for it, I agree that you should be allowed to inspect and fully test it at your will. If the machine also needs a rehaul, then that price doesn't make any sense at all.

[CarlosV]

HMV163's are quite common and show up regularly for sale in the UK normally at half the price of this one. You can get a much better deal by buying in the UK and paying a van driver to collect it and carry it to Holland. I have done so a number of times. There are some sites that offer transportation to and from the UK to the Continent, it is opportunistic, price varies but could be worthwhile.

As to the machine itself, Marco, this is the smaller of the re-entrant models, with the same horn design as the orthophonics in the US, so the quality of reproduction is quite good, actually these Victors and HMVs are the best acoustic machines ever made apart from the EMGs and Ginn's. The larger HMV models, 202 and 203, command very high prices due not only to sound quality but also to rarity.

[bart1927]

Thanks for the advice. Yes, I have my heart set on an HMV 163 specifically. I know there are a lot of floorstanding models that are cheaper. As a matter of fact, the dealer had also a 157 for sale with a price tag of EUR 475,-. But of course, that's not a re-entrant, and it looks a lot more basic.

I've bought from this dealer before, so don't worry, I will inspect it in person before I hand over any money. I remember one of the members on this forum bought an HMV Lumiere from him (off Ebay), and that turned out to be kind of a disappointment.

Knowing him, he's not really a person who does complete overhauls, he just fixes things that are broken, but I don't expect him to replace damaged veneer, or polish up the brass or anything like that. I even doubt if he regreases the motor, but at this price I may be able to persuade him to include it in the deal. His shop is on the other side of the country (well, it's not that big), and he offered to deliver it to my house in person.

But I haven't made up my mind yet. I also e-mailed another dealer closer to home to inquire if he had one for sale, but I haven't heard back from him yet.

[Marco Gilardetti]

As to the machine itself, Marco, this is the smaller of the re-entrant models, with the same horn design as the orthophonics in the US, so the quality of reproduction is quite good, actually these Victors and HMVs are the best acoustic machines ever made apart from the EMGs and Ginn's.

Yes, thanks Carlos, I know the machine. Still, personally, I would never pay so much for a floor-standing model. It's in the price range of many high-quality external horn gramophones, and this doesn't make much sense to me. But of course this is subjective.

I, in first place, am perfectly aware of having overpaid some items in the past, mostly because I was too tired to wait or because I feared to never see another pass by. It's OK if you know that you're doing it intentionally and that, from an economic standpoint, you're aware that it's not a good deal. Most of these purchases are emotional, after all: these are not goods that we really need to carry on living.

[Steve]

I've had a 163 and a 194 before I bought my 202. The bigger the horn the better the gramophone will sound. With that said, and has already been stressed here, the bigger models are very expensive, more so than even the large EMG's and Experts. The reproduction of an Expert Senior (the best to my ears) and an EMG 10B upwards is noticeably better than the re-entrant models in part because they were much LATER developments brought about my small independent companies tending to and tweaking basic early horn design for a niche market when the greater market had moved over to electrically amplified technology. EMG and Expert were always 'fringe' outfits.

As for the 163 it is quite a lot better all round than the 157 (which I've also had) and worth paying the extra for to my mind. In the UK and Europe, the 163 offers probably the best sound from an acoustic instrument for the money. I'd expect to pay between £500-600 for a really crisp example today. I appreciate that Bart is in the Netherlands and a 163 is not a small item to get transported but as Carlos has already stated, I would seriously look into the cost of a courier to get a 163 from the UK. The price quoted for the machine is approximately £1100 which is about twice the going rate. I'm prepared to bet that an online courier would deliver that for under £300 or E400. Go to one of the websites and input the size and weight of a 163 and try to obtain competitive quotes. These machines turn up fairly frequently here so if you're happy to wait to buy a machine and then willing to wait for the "right" courier, you could save a few hundred Euros easily. Some couriers tending on Shiply for example, are transporters of furniture who are simply seeking to optimise their journeys (to save fuel costs) by transporting third party goods in otherwise empty lorries on outward or return journeys. This is why I say you might need to be patient to hook up with the most economic courier.

OR if you're like me you'll completely ignore my advice and proceed to buy the best example you can find at your earliest convenience, never mind the additional cost!

In terms of what to look for (especially if it's a UK sold 163), make sure it has a) a horn inside and b) that it's the RIGHT horn inside! You might not believe it but some unscrupulous dealers have fitted these up with non-original horns. If the horn is ok and the grille / clothe is both original and not torn, you should be good to go. Veneer peel is also quite common on these models but nothing a little wood glue and a heavy weight can't sort out.

[bart1927]

I've had a 163 and a 194 before I bought my 202. The bigger the horn the better the gramophone will sound. With that said, and has already been stressed here, the bigger models are very expensive, more so than even the large EMG's and Experts. The reproduction of an Expert Senior (the best to my ears) and an EMG 10B upwards is noticeably better than the re-entrant models in part because they were much LATER developments brought about my small independent companies tending to and tweaking basic early horn design for a niche market when the greater market had moved over to electrically amplified technology. EMG and Expert were always 'fringe' outfits.

As for the 163 it is quite a lot better all round than the 157 (which I've also had) and worth paying the extra for to my mind. In the UK and Europe, the 163 offers probably the best sound from an acoustic instrument for the money. I'd expect to pay between £500-600 for a really crisp example today. I appreciate that Bart is in the Netherlands and a 163 is not a small item to get transported but as Carlos has already stated, I would seriously look into the cost of a courier to get a 163 from the UK. The price quoted for the machine is approximately £1100 which is about twice the going rate. I'm prepared to bet that an online courier would deliver that for under £300 or E400. Go to one of the websites and input the size and weight of a 163 and try to obtain competitive quotes. These machines turn up fairly frequently here so if you're happy to wait to buy a machine and then willing to wait for the "right" courier, you could save a few hundred Euros easily. Some couriers tending on Shiply for example, are transporters of furniture who are simply seeking to optimise their journeys (to save fuel costs) by transporting third party goods in otherwise empty lorries on outward or return journeys. This is why I say you might need to be patient to hook up with the most economic courier.

OR if you're like me you'll completely ignore my advice and proceed to buy the best example you can find at your earliest convenience, never mind the additional cost!

In terms of what to look for (especially if it's a UK sold 163), make sure it has a) a horn inside and b) that it's the RIGHT horn inside! You might not believe it but some unscrupulous dealers have fitted these up with non-original horns. If the horn is ok and the grille / clothe is both original and not torn, you should be good to go. Veneer peel is also quite common on these models but nothing a little wood glue and a heavy weight can't sort out.

Hi Steve, thanks for your response. It never occured to me to peek behind the grille, so when I'm visiting that dealer I'll be sure to ask him to remove the grille. I'm not that much in a hurry, the 163 has been on my wish list for years. Buying a machine from the UK might be a good idea, but of course I'll have to factor in about EUR 400,- for shipping. Which means that a UK machine for GBP 600 will still cost me over EUR 1200, plus I won't have the option to see or hear the machine in person. And after a previous bad experience with buying an HMV 130 on Ebay (not to mention that black 101 that was filled with larvae from the carpet beetle, alive and crawling!) I'm a little more cautious with internet purchases.