Considering to purchase an HMV 163

[Steve]

I've had a 163 and a 194 before I bought my 202. The bigger the horn the better the gramophone will sound. With that said, and has already been stressed here, the bigger models are very expensive, more so than even the large EMG's and Experts. The reproduction of an Expert Senior (the best to my ears) and an EMG 10B upwards is noticeably better than the re-entrant models in part because they were much LATER developments brought about my small independent companies tending to and tweaking basic early horn design for a niche market when the greater market had moved over to electrically amplified technology. EMG and Expert were always 'fringe' outfits.

As for the 163 it is quite a lot better all round than the 157 (which I've also had) and worth paying the extra for to my mind. In the UK and Europe, the 163 offers probably the best sound from an acoustic instrument for the money. I'd expect to pay between £500-600 for a really crisp example today. I appreciate that Bart is in the Netherlands and a 163 is not a small item to get transported but as Carlos has already stated, I would seriously look into the cost of a courier to get a 163 from the UK. The price quoted for the machine is approximately £1100 which is about twice the going rate. I'm prepared to bet that an online courier would deliver that for under £300 or E400. Go to one of the websites and input the size and weight of a 163 and try to obtain competitive quotes. These machines turn up fairly frequently here so if you're happy to wait to buy a machine and then willing to wait for the "right" courier, you could save a few hundred Euros easily. Some couriers tending on Shiply for example, are transporters of furniture who are simply seeking to optimise their journeys (to save fuel costs) by transporting third party goods in otherwise empty lorries on outward or return journeys. This is why I say you might need to be patient to hook up with the most economic courier.

OR if you're like me you'll completely ignore my advice and proceed to buy the best example you can find at your earliest convenience, never mind the additional cost!

In terms of what to look for (especially if it's a UK sold 163), make sure it has a) a horn inside and b) that it's the RIGHT horn inside! You might not believe it but some unscrupulous dealers have fitted these up with non-original horns. If the horn is ok and the grille / clothe is both original and not torn, you should be good to go. Veneer peel is also quite common on these models but nothing a little wood glue and a heavy weight can't sort out.

Hi Steve, thanks for your response. It never occured to me to peek behind the grille, so when I'm visiting that dealer I'll be sure to ask him to remove the grille. I'm not that much in a hurry, the 163 has been on my wish list for years. Buying a machine from the UK might be a good idea, but of course I'll have to factor in about EUR 400,- for shipping. Which means that a UK machine for GBP 600 will still cost me over EUR 1200, plus I won't have the option to see or hear the machine in person. And after a previous bad experience with buying an HMV 130 on Ebay (not to mention that black 101 that was filled with larvae from the carpet beetle, alive and crawling!) I'm a little more cautious with internet purchases.

Hi Bart, I completely understand your caution when it comes to buying over the internet. I am exactly the same these days having had my fingers burnt a few times. I think you're very wise to tread carefully. By the way, you do not need to risk damaging the grille fretwork or very importantly, the cloth, by removing it (or indeed scratching the surround with screw-drivers or when removing the grille). All you simply need to do is remove two screws from the back panel and the panel lifts out to give you a rear view of the internal horn. There is no mistaking these horns so a quick glimpse under the motor-board and a quick peek behind the removed rear panel should reveal all that you need to see to ascertain that it's all correct and present.

I don't blame you for wanting to inspect the "local" machine and for considering purchase at the price. You cannot put a price on your piece of mind.

Regards,

Steve

[soundgen]

Dave Smith has one for sale on Ebay bid £600 and you'll probably get it ! Looks OK

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151850676090? ... t_25wt_958

[Steve]

Dave Smith has one for sale on Ebay bid £600 and you'll probably get it ! Looks OK

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151850676090? ... t_25wt_958

I wouldn't touch that one with a barge pole. It has been refinished and there are plenty of unrestored examples out there for less money that would make for a better purchase for a collector.

[bart1927]

Dave Smith has one for sale on Ebay bid £600 and you'll probably get it ! Looks OK

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151850676090? ... t_25wt_958

I wouldn't touch that one with a barge pole. It has been refinished and there are plenty of unrestored examples out there for less money that would make for a better purchase for a collector.

Is it bad that it has been refinished? Does that really deminish the value? I would think that if it were repainted in a hideous color that would be the case, but to my layman's eyes it looks nice. In fact, the only thing I thought when looking at the photo's was: "What a pity he only polished the outside, because the inside looks rather dusty and the tonearm, soundbox and needlecups look a bit dull"

Or is this just a matter of opionion, for instance, there are collectors who would never recover the case of for instance a HMV 101 or the carrying handle, no matter how worn it looks.

I must admit I'm not a fan of those over-restored stuff you sometimes see Ebay. I like a nicely preserved gramophone, but I also like a little patina, but when something is really badly scratched or damaged, I have no problem with a repair of minor restoration.

Perhaps an unrestored 163 would be cheaper (even though this one falls within the pricke bracket you mentioned), but if that would mean I woould have to pay someone else to rebuild the soundbox, remove rock-solid graphite grease from the springs, and do something about lifting veneer or stuff like that, it would still be an expensive undertaking.

[stevel]

Should you find one in the UK I usually go over to Belgium a couple of times a year for tobacco and wine
Wouldn't take much to pop over the border to Holland.....
Steve

[Steve]

Dave Smith has one for sale on Ebay bid £600 and you'll probably get it ! Looks OK

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151850676090? ... t_25wt_958

I wouldn't touch that one with a barge pole. It has been refinished and there are plenty of unrestored examples out there for less money that would make for a better purchase for a collector.

Is it bad that it has been refinished? Does that really deminish the value? I would think that if it were repainted in a hideous color that would be the case, but to my layman's eyes it looks nice. In fact, the only thing I thought when looking at the photo's was: "What a pity he only polished the outside, because the inside looks rather dusty and the tonearm, soundbox and needlecups look a bit dull"

Or is this just a matter of opionion, for instance, there are collectors who would never recover the case of for instance a HMV 101 or the carrying handle, no matter how worn it looks.

I must admit I'm not a fan of those over-restored stuff you sometimes see Ebay. I like a nicely preserved gramophone, but I also like a little patina, but when something is really badly scratched or damaged, I have no problem with a repair of minor restoration.

Perhaps an unrestored 163 would be cheaper (even though this one falls within the pricke bracket you mentioned), but if that would mean I woould have to pay someone else to rebuild the soundbox, remove rock-solid graphite grease from the springs, and do something about lifting veneer or stuff like that, it would still be an expensive undertaking.

Is it bad that it's been refinished? No, not necessarily. Does it devalue it? Almost certainly, YES! Can you find a better example which hasn't been refinished? Yes. Is this example cheap? No. This is the problem. For that same price you can get an unrestored example in spotless condition that might have had the motor re-greased recently for a collector. With this in mind why pay over the top for a refinished example that would not be worth as much? These machines are certainly not rare so a better one will follow shortly. Mark my words, if this is being sold by Dave Smith, it certainly won't be clean, the springs will almost certainly not have been re-greased whilst in his custody and there might be other faults not listed. If you want to have a closer look at the machine ask for better photographs and ask questions. If you're not 100% satisfied with the responses and pictures, leave well alone.

[bart1927]

Is it bad that it's been refinished? No, not necessarily. Does it devalue it? Almost certainly, YES! Can you find a better example which hasn't been refinished? Yes. Is this example cheap? No. This is the problem. For that same price you can get an unrestored example in spotless condition that might have had the motor re-greased recently for a collector. With this in mind why pay over the top for a refinished example that would not be worth as much? These machines are certainly not rare so a better one will follow shortly. Mark my words, if this is being sold by Dave Smith, it certainly won't be clean, the springs will almost certainly not have been re-greased whilst in his custody and there might be other faults not listed. If you want to have a closer look at the machine ask for better photographs and ask questions. If you're not 100% satisfied with the responses and pictures, leave well alone.

I sent him a mail, asking him what "finely restored" exactly meant. He told me that just the outside had been restored, the motor had been checked (so I guess that just means the motor isn't broken, but it hasn't been cleaned or regreased), and the soundbox was unchecked. So I think I'll let this one pass. I'm not in a hurry.

[Steve]

Is it bad that it's been refinished? No, not necessarily. Does it devalue it? Almost certainly, YES! Can you find a better example which hasn't been refinished? Yes. Is this example cheap? No. This is the problem. For that same price you can get an unrestored example in spotless condition that might have had the motor re-greased recently for a collector. With this in mind why pay over the top for a refinished example that would not be worth as much? These machines are certainly not rare so a better one will follow shortly. Mark my words, if this is being sold by Dave Smith, it certainly won't be clean, the springs will almost certainly not have been re-greased whilst in his custody and there might be other faults not listed. If you want to have a closer look at the machine ask for better photographs and ask questions. If you're not 100% satisfied with the responses and pictures, leave well alone.

I sent him a mail, asking him what "finely restored" exactly meant. He told me that just the outside had been restored, the motor had been checked (so I guess that just means the motor isn't broken, but it hasn't been cleaned or regreased), and the soundbox was unchecked. So I think I'll let this one pass. I'm not in a hurry.

Wise man!

[bart1927]

Is it bad that it's been refinished? No, not necessarily. Does it devalue it? Almost certainly, YES! Can you find a better example which hasn't been refinished? Yes. Is this example cheap? No. This is the problem. For that same price you can get an unrestored example in spotless condition that might have had the motor re-greased recently for a collector. With this in mind why pay over the top for a refinished example that would not be worth as much? These machines are certainly not rare so a better one will follow shortly. Mark my words, if this is being sold by Dave Smith, it certainly won't be clean, the springs will almost certainly not have been re-greased whilst in his custody and there might be other faults not listed. If you want to have a closer look at the machine ask for better photographs and ask questions. If you're not 100% satisfied with the responses and pictures, leave well alone.

I sent him a mail, asking him what "finely restored" exactly meant. He told me that just the outside had been restored, the motor had been checked (so I guess that just means the motor isn't broken, but it hasn't been cleaned or regreased), and the soundbox was unchecked. So I think I'll let this one pass. I'm not in a hurry.

Wise man!

In the mean time I've been getting several quotes from shipley, and the prices are astonishingly (if not: disturbingly) low. I've received quotes as los as 110 euro (thats about GBP 85). That almost seems to good to be true.

[Steve]

In the mean time I've been getting several quotes from shipley, and the prices are astonishingly (if not: disturbingly) low. I've received quotes as los as 110 euro (thats about GBP 85). That almost seems to good to be true.

That is VERY cheap. It's worth checking the insurance cover provided with that service. You need to be covered for at least the full sale price of the machine. If not, pass and move on to the next courier.