The Elusive Columbia Viva Tonal 810

[bigshot]

That looks like it would throw the sound off to the sides. My Cortez has a flatter horn at the bottom than at the top, so it tends to throw the sound up higher into the room.

[CarlosV]

Carlos, are you located is Espana or Portugal? Sometimes wives and phonographs do not mix! La Vida es sueno! I'm planning a trip to Europe next year.

I live in Luxembourg, Marc, and you will be welcome for a visit whenever you are in the neighborhood. We moved to a larger house and by spring the gramophone salön will be ready - right now things are piled up, I had to prioritize finishing the dining room and other details. My wife likes phonographs, as long as they are small, which eliminates most of my collection, but now confined to the salon, they are left in peace - apart from a cat attack now and then.

[CarlosV]

That looks like it would throw the sound off to the sides. My Cortez has a flatter horn at the bottom than at the top, so it tends to throw the sound up higher into the room.

You are right, the best way to listen to the 810 is to sit about 45 degrees from its front.

[bigshot]

It's interesting that the big three used such different horns... the Orthophonic- an exponential horn that enhances bass at the risk of sounding a little muffled, the Cortez a very large traditional Spruce horn with a slightly flattened bottom to raise the sound up off the floor, and the Viva Tonal with baffles designed to splay the sound out to the sides. Those are three totally different approaches to the horn. It's amazing that they were even comparable sonically. I guess the metal diaphragm in the reproducer was a big enough breakthrough that the differences in horn types didn't matter so much.

Finally seeing the Viva Tonal horn explains something about the sound of Columbia electricals. They are very loud and very present, which would be needed if 80% of the sound is being reflected off the walls back at you. I bet the Columbia depends more on the quality of the acoustics of the room more than the other two. It also explains why the Cortez is better at playing acoustic records than the Orthophonic or Viva Tonal. The Brunswick Spruce horn is a traditional straight shot from reproducer to horn mouth, while both the exponential and Viva Tonal are designed to bounce and reflect the sound.

It would be interesting to compare the sound boxes. I've heard Orthophonic and Viva Tonal suitcase phonos with almost identical horn designs, and they sounded VERY similar. Almost identical to my ears in fact. I've never heard a Brunswick suitcase, but my guess is it would sound pretty close too. I've never heard about problems with pot metal or needing to rebuild Brunswick reproducers, and the brass Orthophonics are built like tanks, so perhaps those two have a bit of an edge in build quality. When it comes to cabinetry, the Brunswick is definitely the best, although Having the space to the left to stack records in the Orthophonic is definitely better design than the turntable centered like the Brunswick and Columbia.

It's fascinating to see all three of these together. I'm betting that those really clear Viva Tonal records with the broad response and really well recorded classical scroll Orthos will sound the best on the Credenza,;brash stuff with trumpets, acoustic recordings and 40s records will sound the best on the Cortez, and the Viva Tonal will do well with brightly recorded peppy records, and will be more comfortable to listen to in a good room because of the indirect horn arrangement.

[wtt11]

Let's put EMG in to consideration? I think it beats all of these three....

[bigshot]

Those were made a decade later, weren't they?

[CarlosV]

EMGs and Experts are the best acoustic machines made, but I would not compare with production machines like Victors Columbias or Brunswicks. The EMGs were really a cottage industry, almost made to order, such is that it is hard to find two that are completely identical. And indeed they were produced in the 30s, years after the Credenzas, Cortez and 810s had already been replaced for electrical pickups with radios.

On soundboxes, Bigshot, to my ears the orthophonic sounds better than the viva tonal. Try to find an adapter (or improvise one with rubber just to experiment) and replace the viva tonal with the orthophonic on the 810, and you will listen to the difference. I did that and decided to install a Meltrope on the 810, and have been using it like that since. I cannot comment unfortunately on the Cortez, could not get one (yet), although I think its cabinet looks nicer than the other two.

[wtt11]

EMG is a very bad example when compared to mass produced machines.... For most, at the moment looking back forward the history, EMG is the best.

[bigshot]

On soundboxes, Bigshot, to my ears the orthophonic sounds better than the viva tonal. Try to find an adapter (or improvise one with rubber just to experiment) and replace the viva tonal with the orthophonic on the 810, and you will listen to the difference.

I have the Brunswick. The seal is so good on the tonearm, I'm hesitant to monkey with it, even though I have an Ortho soundbox from my VV-2-65.



Edit: Also, I just noticed it's backwards!

[CarlosV]

Ah, I see that your machine has the later Brunswick soundbox, mine has the older one with the four petal face. I have a couple of these orthophonic-type, but I'll need another adapter to try it on the 810, the coupling of this soundbox is different from the one in the older version.