My HMV 163

[bart1927]

I thought it would be better to start a new topic. Yesterday I got my "new" 163, and I made a few photos and a short video. It's a bit hard to give you a good impression of how it looks in reality, now with these dark and rainy Dutch autumn days. Pictures taken without flash are too dark, and with flash they are a little too bright. I've also taken a few pictures under the hood. You can clearly see that big re-entrant horn. Based on what I've read on the very interesting website http://www.graham-ophones.co.uk/hmv163/4581911678, my 163 is probably one of the earliest examples. This also would explain why the decals are in different positions and why there is only one lifting knob on the motorboard.

This picture is a little dark, but it gives the best impression of the actual color. The grille cloth has a few stains and also some damage in the upper left corner, but since it's original I probably won't replace it.



The next one is a little brighter, perhaps a bit too much. My floor looks almost white now.



A close up of the motor board (with flash). In reality it's a bit darker (the turntable felt and both pieces of felt on the corners are actually dark brown).




Nice original dealer decal. (Duck, Son & Pinker)


And yes, the original re-entrant horn is present. Does anybody know how that thing at the left is supposed to be working? It is somehow connected to the lid stay.



A patent notice glued to the inside of the machine.



Some veneer damage to the backside panel. I tried to remove it, but failed. To the right you can see my HMV 130. It's a lot darker than the 163. I don't know whether they are supposed to be the same color.



I also made a short video. It's a little bit dark, and the tiny mic of my Sony Cybershot photocamera doesn't to the sound of the 163 justice, but it gives an impression.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UB92YX ... e=youtu.be

[epigramophone]

The music business of Duck, Son and Pinker was established in Bath, Somerset in 1848 and closed in 2011. The picture is from a brochure issued in 1948 to commemorate their centenary.

I live in Somerset, and if I was looking to purchase a 163, that dealer transfer would have clinched the deal.

[Retrograde]

bart1927, I'm glad you found a machine. I have one complete 163, one empty 163 cabinet, and one complete 157. All three are very dark oak (dark chocolate color). The 163 is a superb machine that gives a very satisfying rich tone with it's modestly sized re-entrant horn.

[Lucius1958]

And yes, the original re-entrant horn is present. Does anybody know how that thing at the left is supposed to be working? It is somehow connected to the lid stay.

Possibly a pneumatic dash pot to control the lid's descent?

Bill

[bart1927]

bart1927, I'm glad you found a machine. I have one complete 163, one empty 163 cabinet, and one complete 157. All three are very dark oak (dark chocolate color). The 163 is a superb machine that gives a very satisfying rich tone with it's modestly sized re-entrant horn.

My 130 has that same dark chocolate colour. I always thought that was mahogany. However, my 163 has some kind of tiger stripe pattern in the wood, that my 130 doesn't have. You can't really see it clearly in the photo's, but you can see what I mean in the 1st photo on the inside of the doors.

I read that the first 163's from 1927 were different from the later ones: the decal and the "close lid whilst playing" instructions are in different locations, the oak colour was lighter, and possibly it had a No 5. soundbox originally, instead of a 5A. (The No. 5's were not satisfactory, however, since they apparently produced way too much needle chatter, which possibly explains why mine has a 5B. I guess trying to find an original no 5. is next to impossible).

And yes, the original re-entrant horn is present. Does anybody know how that thing at the left is supposed to be working? It is somehow connected to the lid stay.

Possibly a pneumatic dash pot to control the lid's descent?

Bill

I thought of that. There is some sort of knob at the end, and I turned it a little, but didnt notice any difference. Right now the lid doesn't descent at all, unless I push it all the way down. I've seen Youtube clips of Credenza's where you just have to give the lid a little push, and then it descends really slowly by itself. Is mine also supposed to do that?

[Marco Gilardetti]

Hello Bart, I'm glad you didn't buy the first machine in the end: it was terribly overpriced. May we ask how much you paid for this one in the end?

My congrats for your purchase in any case! This is an outstanding machine that will give you hours and hours of joy! A true pleasure for the ears and for the eyes as well!

I second the opinion that that metal cylinder looks like a pneumatic brake/pump to help rise the lid and slow down the closure. I suppose it may have some kind of moving piston inside, whose seals are probably no longer airtight.

Rather than judging by the movie clip, I'd like to read your comments and emotions about the sound of this machine. How was it, when playing the first records on the 163? And how would you describe its sound, compared to that of other gramophones? Its horn is one of the most well engineered ever, and I figure its sound to be grandiose.

[bart1927]

Hello Bart, I'm glad you didn't buy the first machine in the end: it was terribly overpriced. May we ask how much you paid for this one in the end?

My congrats for your purchase in any case! This is an outstanding machine that will give you hours and hours of joy! A true pleasure for the ears and for the eyes as well!

I second the opinion that that metal cylinder looks like a pneumatic brake/pump to help rise the lid and slow down the closure. I suppose it may have some kind of moving piston inside, whose seals are probably no longer airtight.

Rather than judging by the movie clip, I'd like to read your comments and emotions about the sound of this machine. How was it, when playing the first records on the 163? And how would you describe its sound, compared to that of other gramophones? Its horn is one of the most well engineered ever, and I figure its sound to be grandiose.

Hi Marco, for this 163 I paid 575 euro's, which is about 60% cheaper than the one the first dealer had for sale. It was delivered to my house for free, that was also a nice bonus. In my opinion it was a great deal, even though it may have been (partially) refinished. The nickle is bright and shiny, the reproducer is in good shape, the springs have been regreased, and even the speed readout still works.

About the sound: I can only compare it with the sound of my two HMV 101's, my 102 and my 130. Compared to those it sounds a lot bigger and louder, but also with a bit more bottom end. The sound is really impressive for an acoustic machine. Of course I already auditioned it when I visited the seller, but he only had a couple of worn out rock and roll and big band records, so when I played it for the first time in my own home and pulled out a nice Victor Scroll (Jan Garber and His Orchestra with "Positively, Absolutely"), I was like, "wow!"

I must admit though that my modern dedicated system (Rek-O-Kut CVS 14 with several Expert Styli), my Kab Souvenir VSP, Cambridge Audio amp and Dynaudio speakers still sounds better, because it has a much wider frequency range. But then of course you miss out on that great experience of cranking up the machine, putting in a fresh needle, releasing the break, and slowly putting down the needle, in the exact way they used to listen to these records when they were brand new and modern. No need for a DeLorean of a Tardis

[Gram1948]

Hello Bart1927. First of all thanks for the mention of my website (graham-ophones) I started it soon after I started collecting and restoring a couple of years or so ago for just such a purpose as you have used it. Obviously I'm still a "newbie" and just post what I've discovered in the hope that it helps.

Glad to see you've got your 163 and are enjoying it.

3 things.
1.Regarding the lid stay. I seem to remember adjusting mine using the nut at the front of the cylinder under the motor board. As far as I am aware it has two functions. One is to hold it fully open while loading a record and the other is to give a controlled closure. By that I mean in closing you should be able to position the lid anywhere between fully open and closed and it should stay wherever you release your grip. It does not shut automatically but needs you to manually close the lid. The things is, if at any point you let go it will not slam shut. As far as I can remember the cylinder contained a spring which the nut at the end varied the tension on to allow correct setting.
2. Loose veneers. The veneers were originally stuck on with animal glue made from hide and bones. This type of glue can be reheated with a domestic iron and the veneers pressed back. Protect the surface of the veneer with a cloth and iron onto it. Make sure the iron is not on full. Do it by trial and error increasing the heat gradually until the glue melts. The glue between the veneer and the carcass will melt and secure the veneer back in place. Once its back in place I remove the iron and cloth but continue to press down on the veneer, rubbing it with a cloth in my hand while the glue sets.
3. I noticed in your video the speed pointer at the beginning was not where it should be. The pointer on your speed control should rest way back at the end of the slow side. i.e. fully to the right. Chances are the pointer is catching somewhere. Lift the turntable and rotate the speed indicator cover out of the way and you may be able to see where the pointer is catching.
Hope this helps.

[bart1927]

Hello Bart1927. First of all thanks for the mention of my website (graham-ophones) I started it soon after I started collecting and restoring a couple of years or so ago for just such a purpose as you have used it. Obviously I'm still a "newbie" and just post what I've discovered in the hope that it helps.

Glad to see you've got your 163 and are enjoying it.

3 things.
1.Regarding the lid stay. I seem to remember adjusting mine using the nut at the front of the cylinder under the motor board. As far as I am aware it has two functions. One is to hold it fully open while loading a record and the other is to give a controlled closure. By that I mean in closing you should be able to position the lid anywhere between fully open and closed and it should stay wherever you release your grip. It does not shut automatically but needs you to manually close the lid. The things is, if at any point you let go it will not slam shut. As far as I can remember the cylinder contained a spring which the nut at the end varied the tension on to allow correct setting.
2. Loose veneers. The veneers were originally stuck on with animal glue made from hide and bones. This type of glue can be reheated with a domestic iron and the veneers pressed back. Protect the surface of the veneer with a cloth and iron onto it. Make sure the iron is not on full. Do it by trial and error increasing the heat gradually until the glue melts. The glue between the veneer and the carcass will melt and secure the veneer back in place. Once its back in place I remove the iron and cloth but continue to press down on the veneer, rubbing it with a cloth in my hand while the glue sets.
3. I noticed in your video the speed pointer at the beginning was not where it should be. The pointer on your speed control should rest way back at the end of the slow side. i.e. fully to the right. Chances are the pointer is catching somewhere. Lift the turntable and rotate the speed indicator cover out of the way and you may be able to see where the pointer is catching.
Hope this helps.

Hi Graham,

yes, the speed pointer is a little bit temperamental. Sometimes it doesn't go back all the way to "S", unless you let the spring wind down completely. I already removed the speed indicator cover but the indicator wasn't stuck, or anything, as far as I could see. Right now it goes all the way to "S", but it doesn't go gradually. It quickly drops from 78 to about halfway between 78 and S, then it pauses for a short time, and then, very slowly goes to S. I also looked under the motor board, and the speed indicator seems to be connected to the lever with the rubber stopper near the governor (see arrow in photo). I guess when you put the turntable on brake this lever doesn't go back all the way. I could however move it freely, manually.



Thanks for the tip about the lifting veneer. That saves me the trouble of fiddling around with wood glue and seringes as I did last time with my 130. I think I will try it on the backside panel first, so if I somehow manage to screw up, at least it's not in a visible spot.

From your explanation about the lid stay I can conclude mine works fine. I thought it should work the same as the lid stay of a crendenza, but apparently, it doesn't.

[Gram1948]

Hi Bart,

Just a note more on the refixing of the veneer. Unlike my cabinet which was in such a poor state I chose, dare I say it, to re-finish it. You will want to fix veneer without damaging the surface finish. That was not of particular concern to me as I was stripping it anyway. It's therefore more critical that you are careful with the heat from your iron. The aim is to get the glue to melt without damaging the polished surface. Also instead of a cloth use something thicker like a towel. Where the wood has blistered it should go back as long as the blistering has not distorted the wood too much. Where veneer has broken off near the edge dirt may have got in but I'd initially try the same approach in the first instance, low heat applied to a towel on the offending area. As you suggest, best to work on those back areas first. Ultimately you may have to resort to applying new glue but I'd try re-heating the animal glue in the first instance BUT only if your experience with the back proves successful.

By the way. Those "tiger stripes" you refer to are called medullary rays. Good quality oak used to be cut on what was called the quarter i.e. planks and veneers were cut in such a way that they radiated out from the centre of the log. This method of cutting or "converting" the log was expensive as it produced a lot of waste however it showed the medullary rays in the wood to best effect. The alternative to quarter sawing was plain sawing. In this the log was simply sliced through with parallel cuts. The result was no medullary ray pattern but cheaper planks and veneers as it was easier to do and produced less waste. I say no medullary ray pattern, actually it was apparent on the slices that went through the centre of the log. So your other gramophone although in oak, used veneers that were plain sawn whereas the veneers on your 163 came from quarter sawn planks.

All the best
Graham