New gramophone needles - thinking out loud.

[FloridaClay]

Soft tone should also be a bit gentler on records because they are more flexible.

Clay

[Henry]

For many years now I've been using Bry-o-phonic soft tone steel needles in the Exhib. sound box on my VV-XI-G. This combination gives very good results in my listening room, which is only about 170 sq.ft. area with a 7-ft. ceiling that tapers on two opposite sides to 4-ft. knee walls (it's on the second floor of a "Cape Cod" style house). In this environment, I find that the medium tone needles are a bit harsh and loud for most records (a few acoustics excepted), and loud tone needles simply overwhelm my listening space, and also distort the sound output. It's been a long time since I ordered needles from Martin Bryan, as I secured a large quantity some years ago and am still using up that stock, so I don't know the current status of availability.

[startgroove]

Marco, you should consider that I stated an opinion, not a fact. Therefore I could not be "wrong", we are simply in disagreement. In addition, it appears you took that statement out of context. As I further stated, and will definitely agree on, tone and fidelity are affected by needle shape and other factors. I said "There are other design considerations that alter volume and tone". In addition, it goes without saying that the thickness and length affect volume. I ws referring to "pencil shaped needles. My point was that the taper, whether it has a sharp edge at the transition to the shaft, or a rounded one, has very little to do with the volume, tone, fidelity or compliance. I'll add another opinion; since the needle "wears" into the groove of an acoustic record within the first two or three revolutions (at least ideally), whether the needle is polished on the cone, or not, is not very important.

[startgroove]

Clay, I agree with you. I've had some very thin needles for a number of years which I occasionally bring out for demonstrations. They are low volume but don't seem to have as much record fluff on them at the end of the record. Also, they tend to pass the "needle rotate test" after one time through the record.

[Player-Tone]

Oddly enough (but as it often happens on forums) Soundgen's needles have been both criticized (here) as well as praised (here) for not being / being polished and finished. Which claim is correct, in the end?

I have received both types from Mike Child through different orders, so both claims are correct.
I guess it's just luck of the draw on which batch you get.

[Player-Tone]

My main question is: is there any producer of "tapered" shape needles out there? It seems I couldn't find any.

I have been most pleased with the quality and consistency of APSCO's steel needles. I have gone through one box of 5,000 already and recently bought another 5,000 soft-tone needles. All come to a fine polished rounded point with smooth taper.

Here is a close up of an APSCO Loud-Tone and Soft-Tone needle point.

APSCO Loud-Tone & Soft-Tone needle.

IMG_6248.JPG (73.08 KiB) Viewed 1965 times

*I am in no way affiliated with the company, just a happy customer.

[WDC]

Throughout the years I have had all the mentioned needle types. By now, I almost exclusively use the medium needles from zwarteschijf. Like the Bry-O-Phonics, they are also nickel plated, which gives a good protection against corrosion. According to my observation, the slightly elliptical shape tends to be more gentle to the record than needles with a straight angle, although I have to agree that it normally shouldn't have any difference. A friend of mine once pointed out, that among the newly manufactured needles, these are the ones to come close to the original Victor needles.

Additionally, I prefer to buy from a European source, which is much less a hassle, especially with the outrageous prices many US sellers are charging nowadays for overseas shipping (+ customs + possible damage...etc.).

[Victrolacollector]

Throughout the years I have had all the mentioned needle types. By now, I almost exclusively use the medium needles from zwarteschijf. Like the Bry-O-Phonics, they are also nickel plated, which gives a good protection against corrosion. According to my observation, the slightly elliptical shape tends to be more gentle to the record than needles with a straight angle, although I have to agree that it normally shouldn't have any difference. A friend of mine once pointed out, that among the newly manufactured needles, these are the ones to come close to the original Victor needles.

Additionally, I prefer to buy from a European source, which is much less a hassle, especially with the outrageous prices many US sellers are charging nowadays for overseas shipping (+ customs + possible damage...etc.).

That looks very close to what I see in old Victor needle tins. Where can these be purchased and the pricing?

[WDC]

That looks very close to what I see in old Victor needle tins. Where can these be purchased and the pricing?

You can order them directly from Mr. Notenboom at http://zwarteschijf.nl/show-serie.php?serie=34 or inquiry how much shipping would be. I usually buy a box of 2500 at once.

He also sells them on ebay, there also in smaller quantities of 400: http://stores.ebay.com/zwarteschijf-hol ... -needles-/

Pricing differs on ebay where he has them online in different countries. So, I assume, a direct purchase should be cheaper. On his website he charges €43 plus shipping (on eBay, his US shipping fee is $25).

[Marco Gilardetti]

As far as I'm aware, HMVs' "half-tone" needles were their name for "medium" tone.

By mere coincidence, I have found a new pointer that seems to indicate the opposite. I have just received a copy of the famous book "Antique Phonograph Gadgets, Gizmos and Gimmicks" by Fabrizio & Paul. Right on the front cover it is pictured a cylindrical-shaped object that happens to be an HMV needle tins dispenser. There's a more clear picture inside, where the writings are perfectly readable. The needle tones available are marked "Soft", "Half Tone", "Full Tone" and "Extra Loud Tone". What I desume is that, having all other needle types (soft, half and extra loud tone) a specific compartment, the only place where the tins labeled "Loud Tone" can be put is in the "Full Tone" compartment. Hence, the "loud" tones were HMV's "full" tone type.

Quite obviously this is not a "final word" on the matter, but still it enforces my opinion that by "Half Tone" HMV meant exactly what the word implies: ½ or so from full. Not "average" or "medium". By the way, I'm not a native enaglish speaker so I may very well be wrong, but I believe that the word "half" cannot be used as a synonym for "average" or "medium". It means literally "split in two from its entirety".

I have also checked other makes' "Medium Tone" needles, like those made by Marschall for example, which are clearly labeled "Medium": they are visibly thicker and they play noticeably louder than HMV's Half Tone needles.

Once again: I don't have a final word on this matter, they're all conjectures and deductions, but at least to my eyes and ears everything seem to suggest that HMV's Half Tone needles were intended to be a step below full tone.