Why no jeweled needles?

[FloridaClay]

I have been leafing through back issues of Talking Machine World lately and have seen ads for some jeweled-tip multi-play needles for 78s by several makers including Sonora. And of course many later 3 or 4 speed electric phonographs that still played 78s had sapphires in their 78 styli. So why are none being made now for our acoustic lateral 78 machines (assuming they aren't--I haven't seen any)?

An ad from 1915 for the Sonora version is attached.

Clay

[JerryVan]

The idea is to preserve records, not needles. The needle is intended to be sacrificial. A jeweled needle might last for a long time but, with the weight of acoustic reproducers and tone arms, the record would not.

[startgroove]

Jerry is right. Acoustic recordings will be prematurely worn out by using a jewel tip needle. The walls of an acoustic recording are rough and the needle must be "lapped" or "worn" into the groove in order to get all the data out. This happens within the first several revolutions of playing. From manufacturer to manufacturer, and even from record to record by the same manufacturer, the groove dimensions (mainly wall angle and depth), can vary considerably outside the range that a jewel needle is designed to operate. A jewel needle is designed to play from a smooth walled groove, and they simply do not fit the acoustic groove properly. Therefore, the jewel needle, which can last up to 20,000 plays on the correct records, will last only a fraction of that on acoustic records. Acoustic records will actually last longer when using the proper steel needles.

[VintageTechnologies]

A jewelled point on a Victrola will damage a record the first time it is played. Been there, done that, as a beginning collector. No need for anyone to repeat my mistake.

[FloridaClay]

Makes sense to me.

Clay

[Victrolacollector]

Back 100 years ago, there was more emphasis on the needle, as records were plenteous. Today, we are more concerned about preserving the record. I use a steel needle once and then discard.

[Marco Gilardetti]

I think that all previous posts say correct things, but also that they don't really address the point raised by Clay. Pathé records as well as Edison Diamond Discs are there to testify that a shellack record *can* be played with a jewel tip if it is properly shaped and sized. The Tungstone stylus is also very similar to a semiprecious stone tip under many aspects. Then why an approriate jewel tip to play "standard" 78 RPM records had never been engineered, commercialised and become of common use?

I also don't know the "definitive answer", but by checking old ads and commercials on period newspapers and magazines, I realized that at the beginning of discs recording there has been a tremendous battle between the vertical cut + jewel stylus system versus the lateral cut + steel needle system. There were literally hundreds and hundreds of commercials and techincal essays (written by the respective brands) that "proved" that Pathé's sapphire ball was ridicolous or - on the other hand - that the steel needle was primitive and sounded pitifully. Most if not all of these articles were very aggressive and absoultely politically uncorrect: the aim was to pityless bash the competitor's system and product, with no mercy.

I ignore why the two systems could not simply live side-by-side, with sapphire balls styly produced for lateral cut records as well as specific steel needles to play vertical cut records, chosen by customers according to their tastes. But I figure that it was a matter of patents.

I would also be curious to investigate which of the two "sides" - with its claims - was closer to truth. The general arguments were that the steel needle had better tracking and fitted the groove better, while the sapphire ball was more silent and gentle on the record, and was of course reusable. Unfortunately the records belonging to the two systems are different under many aspects (width of the groove and rotating speed primarily, and probably also chemical compounds and recording techniques) so a side-by-side comparison can't be done, but still I'd like to read some comments by those that own a Pathé gramophone and an assortment of records: if as a matter of fact the sapphire ball is so silent and gentle as it was said to be, and sounds better than steel under some aspects.

It is also interesting to note that, after the initial competition between sapphire and steel, the steel won hands down and prevailed in the years between the two World Wars; but later, with the rise of the lightweight electric pickup, the sapphire and the diamond had their revenge (and they are still in use today in contemporary record players, none of which uses a steel needle).

Also, on the long run the vertical cut techonology of cylinders and Pathé discs succumbed to the lateral cut of Berliner-type records; but later, with the introduction of stereophony, it returned to the forefront. Stereophonic LPs are records that, as a matter of fact, are engraved both laterally and vertically at the same time.

So, perhaps, nobody really won in the end.

[CarlosV]

Unfortunately the records belonging to the two systems are different under many aspects (width of the groove and rotating speed primarily, and probably also chemical compounds and recording techniques) so a side-by-side comparison can't be done, but still I'd like to read some comments by those that own a Pathé gramophone and an assortment of records: if as a matter of fact the sapphire ball is so silent and gentle as it was said to be, and sounds better than steel under some aspects.

Having played loads of discs on several Pathé gramophones, I cannot really discern the sapphire ball reproduction from a lateral cut steel, evidently comparing products from the same acoustic period. The background noise only depends on the condition of the record played. As to sapphires being gentle, this is only the case with the ones that accumulated relatively short amount of usage. A worn sapphire will eat away the record groove. The few electrically-recorded Pathé vertical cut records I have, though, sound much thinner than their Victor or Columbia contemporaries, but that is probably due to the reproduction on machines that have mica diaphragms and acoustic paths that were not designed to capture the wider spectrum of electrical recordings. While others developed machines that were specially designed to play electrical records, Pathé simply abandoned the development of vertical cut records, got sold to EMI and shut down the production of vertical cut records, and with that the sapphires disappeared into oblivion until the LP era.

[Marco Gilardetti]

Thanks for your notes, Carlos, that was interesting to read. You are right, a worn, chipped or deformed jewel stylus will act as an engraving tool over the grooves, with awful effects. However, it must be said that this is also partially true for steel needles, if they're not discarded after one or two sides. So again, perhaps, nobody really "won the match" in the end.

[VintageTechnologies]

I'd like to read some comments by those that own a Pathé gramophone and an assortment of records: if as a matter of fact the sapphire ball is so silent and gentle as it was said to be, and sounds better than steel under some aspects.

My disk record collection contains roughly equal numbers of Pathé, Edison and lateral 78rpm records, so I feel qualified to comment.

REGARDING SURFACE NOISE:
The Pathé records should be considered as two different groups, American and French. Their chemical composition is different. The American Pathés are harder disks - they must contain less shellac and more powder filler, and their surface noise is greater than their French cousins. The French Pathés are softer and wear out faster, as evidenced by the gray grooves sometimes found toward the label on the smaller disks, but the French Pathés are noticeably quieter even when worn. When new, the American Pathés and Edisons were probably scratchier sounding than the 78s. The new French Pathés were probably as quiet as the 78s.

REGARDING SOUND QUALITY:
As a broad general statement, all of the acoustic records had very limited fidelity, and even within one brand the recording quality could vary from dismal to startling realism. Sometimes one brand can't be distinguished from another, depending on what is recorded. Disregarding surface noise, I think the Edisons often have a superior fidelity to the others, although because of their acoustically deadened studio techniques, sometimes they don't sound as brilliant as the Pathés. Both Edison and Pathé seem vastly superior when reproducing bells and other percussive instruments. Some of the Victor band recordings sound very flat and lifeless to me; whereas some of the early Columbia band recordings had much better fidelity.

REGARDING DURABILITY:
I have not conducted any scientific endurance tests, but I think the Pathés would last much longer than 78s played with steel needles. The Pathé literature advertised that their records could be played 1,000 times without wear. I am inclined to believe it. I have seen more evidence of wear on the 78s. There are several factors that ought to determine record wear: 1) Groove shape - round ball versus pointed needle. 2) Stylus radius versus stylus pressure. In other words, a ratio of the number of pounds per square inch. The Pathé grooves and stylus have a larger contact surface area than the others, so the pressure on a given area is presumably less. 3) Hardness of the record surface.

REGARDING STYLUS CONDITION:
I have studied the effects of wear to Pathé stylii under a microscope. When new, the surface is perfectly round and has the slightest frosted appearance. After several hundred plays a polished bright spot appears, but the surface is still round. Later, a small flat spot appears and over time becomes larger. It is debatable how fast record wear accelerates as the spot gets larger. At last, bits of sapphire flake off the edges of the flat spot, causing sharp edges - that is when a record will be visibly damaged by a single pass.

The 78rpm records eventually won in the marketplace, but not because the vertical records were technically inferior. That often happens. Remember the videotape wars, Betamax vs. VHS?