Another phonograph followed me home, and there are questions

[FloridaClay]

Sad sack phonographs, with plaintive "save me" cries, tend to follow me home. The latest is the remnants of a Vic II humpback, which arrived today. (Think goodness I don't have a similar weakness for puppies, or it would be wall to wall dogs!)

There is good news and bad news and some not quite sure yet news all leading to some questions.

The good news:

1. The case is in very good condition and should clean up nicely.
2. The case hardware is all there (lid latch, speed control, hinges, crank escutcheon and all that). Some of it may need plating.
3. The turntable is a correct cast-iron turntable underneath that ugly synthetic modern felt, which will soon be replaced with the correct type and color. It sits a bit high in the pictures because it is sitting on top of the pins at the moment so I can easily remove it as I work on things.
4. The motor is the correct single-spring motor and runs well.

The bad news:

1. No horn. I have a nice original Victor H for it arriving later today. (H’s were an option on this model, so it will be correct.)
2. No horn elbow. I will be getting one in due course.
3. The mystery reproducer is, of course, incorrect, but I have an excellent round-needle-hole Exhibition for it correct for this model.
4. The crank works but the piece on the end that accepts the shaft from the motor is a loose sleeve threaded inside, attached to the crank’s shaft with a pin and has file marks on the outside of it as though it had been filed down to get it small enough to pass through the escutcheon. Appears to be a home brew item somebody pieced together at some point. I will be getting a replacement.

The I’m not quite sure yet department:

This has to do with the tone arm assembly. The arm length is about right in length for tracking. However (isn't there always a "however"):

1. The screw end crook is obviously incorrect. It should have what the VDB refers to as a plugin crook.
2. I am not sure whether the back of the arm, or part of it at least, might be right or not. It’s length, from the center of the base opening to the center of the crook-mounting piece is 7 ¾”. This is the same as it is on that part of the tone arm on my Vic III. The crook mounting piece appears to have been soldered on to the main body of the arm at some point later in its life. It may (?) be a replacement somebody added so that it would fit the later crook.
3. The mounting bracket is essentially identical to the Vic III bracket. The horn elbow from my Vic III fits it.

The questions:

1. Is the back bracket the same for a humpback Vic II and a Vic III, or do I in fact just have a Vic III back bracket?
2. If the latter, what are the main differences?
3. Is any of the tone arm correct?
4. What in the world is the reproducer? Some sort of aftermarket item? As an aside, it looks to have been on the crook for a very, very long time.
5. As you know, these cast iron turntable have holes in them. Was anything originally put under the felt to keep the felt from drooping down into the holes making dimples on the top of the turntable?

I’ll try to keep this updated from time to time as things progress.

[gramophone78]

I'II give it a go.
Answers to your questions...
1) No. The Victor III uses a larger elbow and the bracket/tone arm are larger. Depending on the throw...it may also be for a Vic.V. It may also have come off a Vic. M or MS rear mount (later marked III & IV). Pictures showing the side profile and measurements would need to be posted to provide more information as to which of the large cases it originates from.
As Jerry B mentioned in one of your other threads....the Vic. II uses it's own smaller size elbow that was also briefly used on late Vic.I's.

The above answers question #2.

#3 No. The tone arm (main body) is a larger arm used on the models mentioned above. It also appears a much later crook was attached and rigged to fit onto the end of the main body.

#4 Without showing the face of the reproducer....it's anyone's guess as to what it is. Certainly does not appear to be a Victor part and therefore not correct for this machine.

#5 No, nothing was placed under the felt.

Crank is from something else. A pic of the motor should also be posted.

Bottom line...it has been somewhat cobbled together at some point... .

[FloridaClay]

The face of the reproducer is blank, as seen here. As shown in a picture already posted and more here, the back of it is metal (with a now rock hard rubber isolator sandwiched in). The diaphragm is mica.

As indicated originally, this back bracket it identical to a correct Vic III back bracket I have. (In fact now that there is confirmation that the Vic II bracket is different I may use it on my Vic III as it is in slightly better condition.)

What I am looking for is information that will help me identify the correct humpback back bracket should I come across one. For example, what is the difference between the back brackets for Vic IIIs and IIs? Are the brackets for Vic Is and IIs the same? If the two brackets look different a good picture of the Vic II bracket would be much appreciated.

I've already researched the motor and verified that it is correct (did that before I bought it, knowing that the arm and reproducer were suspect), but would be happy to post a pic if you guys would like to see it.

There is a lot of excellent information on Victor motor identification on this site, and here is a fine article from the Antique Phonograph Society website. http://www.antiquephono.org/victorvictr ... ld-braker/ (This is the main one that confirmed for me that my Vic II motor was correct.)
Clay

[mcgravy]

Clay, Nice machine. I believe the reproducer is a Columbia.

[Jerry B.]

It was cobbled together at some previous time but now it's time to uncobble the little Victor II. You need:
Victor II back bracket which is the same on a humpback or plain case Victor II or late big case Victor I (Thanks Wayne)
Victor II tone arm. The one you currently have is from a later Victrola.
Victor II elbow which is available as a very nice reproduction from Ron Sitko.
Victor II size clip and screw to hold the elbow to the back bracket.
Correct crank which is also available from Ron.

The Victor II back bracket turn up quite frequently. I've sold several spare ones over the years. The tone arm might be more difficult. There are some early Victrola tone arms that appear identical but, if my memory is correct, are about .75" too long. A good way to tell if you have the correct back bracket and tone arm is to rotate the reproducer into a playing position. When rotated to the center of the turntable, the needle should touch or come very close to the spindle. Jerry Blais

[alang]

The case is in really nice condition. I would not do any plating on any of the hardware, it looks fine as is. Interesting that yours has the tab release for the lid lock, while mine has a simple push button. Which one is earlier?

Mine still had some remnants of the original felt, there was nothing under it to protect over the holes.

I would try to find the correct back bracket and tonearm, but wouldn't restore anything else. It looks great as is - aside from the felt.

Looks really great on the matching cabinet. Congratulations!
Andreas

[FloridaClay]

Thanks all for your input!

I'm guessing that the lid lock via push button is later. My Vic III has the push button.

That crummy felt turned out to be hard to get completely off. Don't know what kind of glue they used. Goo Gone would not touch it. It finally softened enough after soaking the turntable in water for a couple of hours that I could scrape it off with a putty knife. Will post a pic as soon as I get the good felt installed.

Getting the Vic III/IV back bracket was not all bad. It cleaned up nicely and the paint and decal on it are better than the one now on my Vic III, so I will swap them out and sell the one on my Vic III later. Will be looking for a Vic II BB & tone arm, but it may have to wait until my budget recovers a little.

Clay

[oldtvsandtoys]

Sad sack phonographs, with plaintive "save me" cries, tend to follow me home. The latest is the remnants of a Vic II humpback, which arrived today. (Think goodness I don't have a similar weakness for puppies, or it would be wall to wall dogs!)

There is good news and bad news and some not quite sure yet news all leading to some questions.

The good news:

1. The case is in very good condition and should clean up nicely.
2. The case hardware is all there (lid latch, speed control, hinges, crank escutcheon and all that). Some of it may need plating.
3. The turntable is a correct cast-iron turntable underneath that ugly synthetic modern felt, which will soon be replaced with the correct type and color. It sits a bit high in the pictures because it is sitting on top of the pins at the moment so I can easily remove it as I work on things.
4. The motor is the correct single-spring motor and runs well.

The bad news:

1. No horn. I have a nice original Victor H for it arriving later today. (H’s were an option on this model, so it will be correct.)
2. No horn elbow. I will be getting one in due course.
3. The mystery reproducer is, of course, incorrect, but I have an excellent round-needle-hole Exhibition for it correct for this model.
4. The crank works but the piece on the end that accepts the shaft from the motor is a loose sleeve threaded inside, attached to the crank’s shaft with a pin and has file marks on the outside of it as though it had been filed down to get it small enough to pass through the escutcheon. Appears to be a home brew item somebody pieced together at some point. I will be getting a replacement.

The I’m not quite sure yet department:

This has to do with the tone arm assembly. The arm length is about right in length for tracking. However (isn't there always a "however"):

1. The screw end crook is obviously incorrect. It should have what the VDB refers to as a plugin crook.
2. I am not sure whether the back of the arm, or part of it at least, might be right or not. It’s length, from the center of the base opening to the center of the crook-mounting piece is 7 ¾”. This is the same as it is on that part of the tone arm on my Vic III. The crook mounting piece appears to have been soldered on to the main body of the arm at some point later in its life. It may (?) be a replacement somebody added so that it would fit the later crook.
3. The mounting bracket is essentially identical to the Vic III bracket. The horn elbow from my Vic III fits it.

The questions:

1. Is the back bracket the same for a humpback Vic II and a Vic III, or do I in fact just have a Vic III back bracket?
2. If the latter, what are the main differences?
3. Is any of the tone arm correct?
4. What in the world is the reproducer? Some sort of aftermarket item? As an aside, it looks to have been on the crook for a very, very long time.
5. As you know, these cast iron turntable have holes in them. Was anything originally put under the felt to keep the felt from drooping down into the holes making dimples on the top of the turntable?

I’ll try to keep this updated from time to time as things progress.

I would kill for the cabinet its sitting on Anyone have one for sale?

[FloridaClay]

Step 1. New wool felt installed.

Clay

[FloridaClay]

I would kill for the cabinet its sitting on Anyone have one for sale?

It was just dumb luck that I found it. It showed up at a local auction house that sells anything and everything but seldom has phono stuff.

Clay