Pathéphone no. 36 (start-stop mechanism)?

[coecky]

Hello,
Thanks for accepting me to your forum. I am new to this forum and to the field of "talking machines" but I have experience in clock repair.
Currently I am trying to repair a Pathéphone 36. After repair of the spring (which is huge and scary, compared to even the largest ones in a clock) I also have a problem with the start-stop mechanism. This is made of a large handle on the front that connects to a gear on the main shaft. I have no clue how this should work: I also found a collar and a (broken?) spring on that shaft. Even the sequence those 3 parts were mounted on the shaft looks wrong to me. It's hard to explain this, since English is not my mother tongue; I know a picture could help, but I didn't find out yet how to add one to this topic.
All information is welcome, also on the history of this machine and on the reproducer (since the sapphire is missing and I would like to find a new one).
Alex.

[alang]

Hello Alex, welcome to the forum and to the addictive worl of antique phonographs. You can easily upload up to ten pictures per post. Simp,y scroll to the bottom and add files. I am sure someone here will be able to help you after seeing a few good pictures of the problem.

Andreas

[coecky]

Thanks Andreas, I must have overlooked the fact that a picture is also a file
The sequence of the items on the main shaft as I found it is probably wrong, but I am not sure how it should be and how it would brake and finally stop the shaft from turning. The small item at the top of the second picture between the spring and the collar was found at the bottom of the box, but I think it broke off of the spring.
Any help is more than welcome.
Alex.

[phonodesbois]

Hello,

Thanks to my wife which was able to find right away our Pathéphone 36, I can give some explanations (but English is not my mother tongue...). Let's say that the piece on the left of your last pic is A then B for the middle one and C for the one on the right. I think the mounting sequence you did is right: C then A then B. However the spring (B) is broken; normally the broken part should go in the small hole of A.
Pretty sure that my explanations are totally unclear...
I made 2 pics which might give you more info and will try tomorrow (with daylight) to take better pics.
Jeff

[phonodesbois]

Addendum: the broken spring is similar to "a winding shaft spring" and can be made with a piano wire of the same size. The process is well described by Reiss in his book "the compleat talking machine".

[US PHONO]

On some Pathé motors there is a spring on the winder (non return spring) that prevents the winder unwinding. On your motor the winder reversing prevention is a rachet cog on the winder shaft. Where does the spring you mention fit. I see one on the turntable shaft?

The purpose of the lever mechanism - for those who do not know - was to accelerate the turntable to playing speed rapidly.

[phonodesbois]

Hello, the lever mechanism has two purposes: the mandatory one is to act as a brake; the added feature is that it acts as an accelerator in order to reach faster the right speed. If I understand correctly your pics, the 3 pieces are more or less in place in the first pic and you took them away on the other one.
I took 2 more pics: one called wrong shows an incorrect assembly of the spring which translates into the brake will not be operational. the other one (called obviously "right") shows how the spring should be positionned.
I hope it will help!
Jeff

[coecky]

Thank you for the information. I can see how it should be done, but I still don't understand how it really works: since the spring (B) and the gear (A) are connected to each other and held in place by the lever they will be stationary and not rotate when the device is playing, then by moving the lever (to the left?) the shaft should be stopped by the spring. How does a simple turning of the gear and spring over the shaft create a braking effect on that shaft?
Jeff, if you prefer to answer in French (my guess based on your username), please do: I understand French quite well but don't write it that well.
To "US PHONO": the broken spring in the picture fits on the turntable shaft but I have also a non-return spring on the winding shaft; this one is still OK as far as I can see. The spring I said I repaired in my first post was the mainspring of the motor.

[phonodesbois]

I will do it both in (poor) english and french!

When the lever is on the left, the lever and the gear (A) are connected so the motor is stopped.
When you move the lever on the right,at first it allows the motor to run, then the lever and the gear (A) are disconnected (no more teeth on the level) and you can enjoy the record you put on the turntable.
Without the B spring, your gramophone will have no brake at all (on this unit, the speed regulator cannot stop the motor).

In French now: quand le lanceur est à gauche, le lanceur et l'engrenage (A) sont connectés et le moteur est donc arrêté.
En poussant le levier vers la droite, il lance le moteur puis se désengage de l'engrenage car il ne le touche plus et le moteur tourne donc normalement.
Sans le ressort A, le moteur n'a pas de frein et,sur cette machine, il ne peut pas être arrêté avec le réglage de vitesse.

If it's still unclear, just ask again!
Jeff

[coecky]

Thanks Jeff, now I understand it: I must have missed the fact that on your motor the teeth on the far side of the lever are not covering the complete end, but stop half-way. On my motor, the teeth are covering much more of the endplate (see picture) and the lever was adjusted such that there was always at least one tooth engaged: so I did not understand how it could have worked.
Thanks again!