Amberolas

[A Ford 1]

Hi,
Sun damage to finishes varies from darkening in some cases to causing the finish to lighten in others. In the past as a floor man I had noted that areas under rugs were lighter than floor exposed to sun on the other hand I have a Steinway L Duo-Art that was restored before I bought it and the surfaces exposed to sun look lighter due to a yellowish oxidation of the finish.
Allen

[NEFaurora]

"I've seen nothing in period Edison literature to suggest any choice of finishes for the Amberola 30." - George P.

George, I wondered this myself a few years ago and I think I found the answer. I think that the answer is that the Amberola 30 was made in both Golden Oak and Fumed Oak finishes. I've seen lots of different examples of Amberola 30's and some of the early examples look like Golden Oak while later examples look like Fumed Oak.

Quite a few Edison earlier 1917-1919 catalogs touted the Amberola 30 as being available in Golden Oak Only. I believe that the really early Amberola 30 machines were in Golden Oak. Though the majority of Amberola 30's we see are mostly in "Fumed Oak" I think..since they are so dark. I am talking original examples, now "restored" machines.

The original finish is so dark on the later machines (and it's not age) that how could they be anything other than Fumed Oak?

Interesting discussion!

Thoughts?

)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer

[phonogfp]

"I've seen nothing in period Edison literature to suggest any choice of finishes for the Amberola 30." - George P.

George, I wondered this myself a few years ago and I think I found the answer. I think that the answer is that the Amberola 30 was made in both Golden Oak and Fumed Oak finishes. I've seen lots of different examples of Amberola 30's and some of the early examples look like Golden Oak while later examples look like Fumed Oak.

Quite a few Edison earlier 1917-1919 catalogs touted the Amberola 30 as being available in Golden Oak Only. I believe that the really early Amberola 30 machines were in Golden Oak. Though the majority of Amberola 30's we see are mostly in "Fumed Oak" I think..since they are so dark. I am talking original examples, now "restored" machines.

The original finish is so dark on the later machines (and it's not age) that how could they be anything other than Fumed Oak?

Interesting discussion!

Thoughts?

)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer

The only problem with your theory is that fumed oak is not dark - - it's light.

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... k&start=20

George P.

[NEFaurora]

Yes, It is light...but it's not as light as Golden Oak. That is what I was originally driving at.

Maybe I should re-phrase and say that "Fumed Oak" is darker than "Golden Oak".

I think that sounds better.....No?!??


)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer

[phonogfp]

Yes, It is light...but it's not as light as Golden Oak. That is what I was originally driving at.

Maybe I should re-phrase and say that "Fumed Oak" is darker than "Golden Oak".

I think that sounds better.....No?!??


)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer

Your original claim:

"I believe that the really early Amberola 30 machines were in Golden Oak. Though the majority of Amberola 30's we see are mostly in "Fumed Oak" I think..since they are so dark."

...is based on guesswork, with no period documentation cited to support a choice of finishes for the Amberola 30.

I have a Golden Oak Victrola which is significantly darker than the Fumed Oak Victrola shown in the old thread referenced above. I don't agree with the premise that Fumed Oak is darker than Golden Oak. Fumed Oak is very light. If you have a copy of Baumbach's Victor Data Book, you'll find a display of sample finishes which will bear out that assertion.

George P.

[Lucius1958]

For what it's worth, the original finish on my 30 (with external speed control, hence relatively early) was quite dark: certainly too dark to have been "Golden Oak" when new.

Bill

[phonogfp]

I've seen a number of 30s with dark finishes. I can't explain it definitively, and I won't offer my conjecture as fact, but I've also encountered oak furniture that has been deliberately darkened with what I assume is stain. (I have just refinished a circa 1903 oak record cabinet which was darkened at some point, but fortunately the insides were left alone.) My assumption after seeing so much of this, is that as oak furniture went out of fashion, some owners deliberately darkened the finishes to make them more "attractive" in their eyes. Again, this is only my conjecture.

If anyone can show period documentation offering a choice of finishes for the 30, I'd be obliged.

As I wrote in an earlier post on this thread:

"Far more likely is that the different colors we encounter are due to differences in storage, care, cleaning agents used, and possibly later staining by an owner wishing a darker cabinet. The finish itself may have been cheapened over the production run as well (as the cabinets were), but I have no documentation for that."

Frow notes on page 178 of the 1994 edition of The Edison Cylinder Phonograph Companion:

In December 1919 John Constable prepared a report on the state of all disc and cylinder phonographs since the fire of five years earlier, and was critical of the later AMBEROLAS... In their original designs they had a better finish [italics added] and reproduced records better in spite of a number of modifications. He blamed standardization of parts and cost savings for the deterioration in efficiency, tone quality, and appearance [italics added]... At any rate a further attempt to cheapen the AMBEROLAS came in the summer of 1920 when the cabinets were made lighter and simpler and other alterations proposed.

I thought I had encountered a reference to finishes being cheapened (possibly changed to a wax finish?), but I cannot find that reference.

Frow's references certainly argue against there having been any choice of finish offered for the 30. The less expensive models of any company's line seldom offered such a choice, and with the documented cheapening of the line by 1919, the possibility of the 30 ever having had such an option seems remote indeed. Again, I would be delighted to learn something to the contrary.

George P.

[A Ford 1]

Hi All, My first job was working for my father as a hardwood floor refinisher of old Oak and hart pine floors and installer of new floors. One thing that was very obvious in refinishing work was the color change between the floor that was protected from light damage by a rug or rugs and the perimeter of the rooms that received sun and or light. In the early days pre-1900 to the start of the 1940 the primary finish used was shellac. The start of the second world war caused a shortage of shellac and staining and waxing over the stain was one of the replacement finishes.
The areas of floors exposed to light were very dark the more light they received the darker they were, where as, the areas that were protected were light. This totally is in sync with what is found in phonographs, dark on the out side light on the inside. I think I may have stated this some other place in the forum but it needed to be said under this topic.
Thank you all kindly for all the info. you make available,
Allen

[FloridaClay]

I have a Golden Oak Victrola which is significantly darker than the Fumed Oak Victrola shown in the old thread referenced above. I don't agree with the premise that Fumed Oak is darker than Golden Oak. Fumed Oak is very light. If you have a copy of Baumbach's Victor Data Book, you'll find a display of sample finishes which will bear out that assertion.

George P.

George, I am sitting here looking at LFTD and this is a one in a million time I just have to, with some trepidation, disagree.

IN LFTD--in my copy at least--Golden Oak Waxed is slightly lighter than fumed and Golden Oak Polished is a lot lighter than fumed, especially in its many highlights. And that is quite consistent with golden and fumed oak furniture finishes I have seen for decades, with the possible exception where exposed shellac has darkened over a long period of time.

I also have a fumed oak C19 with its original finish and comparing inside the lid to inside the lid (where the finishes have deteriorated the least) it is significantly darker than just about all the golden oak I've seen over the years. The same is true of another fumed C19 I've seen recently.

Clay

[NEFaurora]

Also to add,

I have a MINT Original condition Amberola 50 in Golden Oak, and also two Mint Original Amberola 30's (Also Original finishes). The Amberola 30's are way darker than the Golden Oak finishes of my Amberola 50... I mean it's like night and day, They are not even close. These are all Original untouched machines, and the finishes on the lower insides of the machines match the outsides 100%...and are unmessed with. IMHO, The Edison name "Golden Oak" (to me) makes me think of a Golden Yellow Tiger Oak wood. But that is my opinion. To me, My original Amberola 30's look more like "Fumed Oak", not "Golden Oak"...but that is also my opinion. I would not ever consider my Amberola 30's to be "Golden Oak"... At least to me, They don't look like Golden Oak. They look to me what I would consider to be "Fumed Oak". With all that being said, I have seen some Very Early Amberola 30's with the same light Golden finish as my Amberola 50 which I would consider "Golden Oak".

Anyway, I think some good pics are in order. I'll try and take some pics this week and add them to this thread along with some original literature. It will also give me an excuse to dust the machines!

Also, It might be a good idea for someone to come up with an "Original Looking" Wood finish guide. Something people could use on this forum as a reference. Though most original finishes do darken with age, and finishes do vary, Some type of guide would be better than no guide at all. Maybe showing A certain color wood, What it should look like originally, what it looks like aged, and so forth. Just an idea for someone who wants to put the work in to get it done. It would add a lot to the forum, especially since so many wood finish questions always come up. I'm actually surprised that noone has not done it already!..lol..

)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer