A Triumph operating question

[pughphonos]

Hi Folks. This is hardly a big issue--but what the hey, this thread can be quickly wrapped up.

My Edison Triumph model D is my only cylinder phonograph and I have lavished tons of repair and upgrades on it since 2011. It's been shipped around the country (by me) several times for the first steps, but the last time I wouldn't even commit it to the mail and so drove it up to George Vollema in northern Michigan for his final touches; when he was done I then drove up there to retrieve it. It was one of those times when you realize "how far gone" you are as a daffy collector/hobbyist: George helped me sit the Triumph on a seat of its own (next to me, the driver) and secure it with its own seat belt! I was half-tempted--when I soon visited a fast-food drive-thru--to ask the Triumph what it wanted.

Sooooo--the machine has had every last possible thing adjusted; everything is straight; tensions are right; all wobbly gears replaced; new springs in new packings of lubrication. In terms of upper works: new bushing, new belt, etc.

OK, on to the question: for the most part it plays wonderfully well and evenly. But once in awhile it flutters--as if something is tugging somewhere. I usually run the springs down a bit, jiggle the mandrel, run it as fast as it will go--and then wind it up again; then she's usually fine for a day or two before it might happen again.

This is for the people who really know their Triumphs and play them a lot. I don't think I need to chase after any more repairs. I just want anecdotes from people as to what it is that causes that occasional resistance somewhere--and what your tricks are to get the most consistent performance possible.

Thanks -- and Happy Tuesday!

Ralph

[ambrola]

Is it skipping at times? I have a 4 minute only Standard D that's doing that. I think it's in the half nut or feed screw?

[NEFaurora]

Don't forget to take the actual cylinders into consideration also. Original Blue Amberols sometimes warp in the middles of the cylinders, and Original Black Indestructibles tend to shrink which cause the very beginnings and the very ends of the cylinders to skip.

Reproduction cylinders are only as good as the Original cylinders that they were originally copied from. I have two new VULCAN copies of My Old Kentucky Home, and they both skip in the same exact spots no matter what machine I play them on. Obviously a fault in the original cylinder that Duncan copied them from.....but most newer reproduction cylinders are trouble/problem free though.

Don't forget to check the height of the Reproducer Carriage also - A most often overlooked item. I have an Amberola 75 that Echoed very badly like a ghost was living in it..and I expected it to be a bad stylus which is usually the cause. It turned out that at some point in its history, someone had messed with the adjustment nuts and screws on the reproducer carriage that controlled the reproducer height above the record when in Play mode (Reproducer Dropped). The reproducer height turned out to be way off...so I readjusted it to match the same reproducer height on my Amberola 50 and my Amberola 30's... and Voila!... My Amberola 75 was singing correctly again.. (minus the ghosts)....lol..

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer

[VintageTechnologies]

Ralph, have you asked George about this? Although I have a Triumph, I don't use it much and don't consider myself a "Triumph expert", but perhaps the problem is a bit more generic than that. In my own experience, flutter can be caused by belt slippage or governor issues. Diagnosing an unstable governor problem can be maddening!

I would prop the motor bed up to watch the governor spin while the record flutters. Once the flutter begins, is it consistent under different loads, such as carriage up or down, or while the machine is set to 2 or 4 minute gearing? Does the fluttery governor visually appear to run smooth or pulsate? The governor has a brass regulating flange that slides a very short distance on the central governor shaft - the flange surface in contact with the felt pad might have too little or too much oil on it. The slightest sticky gum or grit between the sliding flange and central shaft might cause irregular problems. Since the governor usually runs even, I don't believe the governor springs are bent or out of adjustment, so I would NOT loosen the screws holding them to the brass parts. Report your observations and perhaps someone will have additional ideas.

[FellowCollector]

once in awhile it flutters--as if something is tugging somewhere. I usually run the springs down a bit, giggle the mandrel, run it as fast as it will go--and then wind it up again; then she's usually fine for a day or two before it might happen again.

I have several Triumphs that play great and no one should ever have to go through the procedure that you are currently doing to get any Triumph running properly.

As Keith suggested indirectly above, the governor is usually the culprit for flutter during playback of a cylinder phonograph including the Triumph. The Triumph has PLENTY of power so there should be no issue in that regard relative to play.

The governor friction disc MUST be able to move freely and smoothly on the governor shaft. Any sort of binding, waivering or stickiness during rotation of the governor during normal play is a warning that something is not quite right. The governor weights should always rotate evenly with absolutely no variance at normal playback speed for optimal operation and enjoyment of a cylinder.

If you are able to post a video of this issue occurring during play of a cylinder it could be useful in diagnosing the problem.

[phonogfp]

I will echo the sentiments above regarding the governor.

I'll also repeat a story I've told before about a similar problem with a friend's Triumph Model B. The inconsistent speed would come and go. One day it would play fine; the next it would act up. I did everything I could think of in ascending order of complexity. Including disassembly/cleaning/regreasing all three mainsprings . Imagine my reaction when that darn Triumph started its antics again.

The only thing I HADN'T done was disassemble the governor. When I did, I found that those Triumph governor springs had an oval hole on one end, and a round hole on the other. One of them was backwards. I reversed the governor spring and reassembled everything. The machine has run perfectly for about 5 years now.

George P.

[pughphonos]

Thank you Amberola, Tony, Keith, Doug and George!

I cleaned off the governor end disc last night before applying fresh oil--and also adjusted the bushing. It worked fine for several cylinders after that. But I'm not sure those adjustments alone will permanently fix the problem as when it does act the machine can really slow down--and adjusting the speed knob doesn't make any difference when it's having one of those "fits."

So I'm thinking that George's advice that I inspect the governor is something I really must do--to see if it's assembled correctly. I'm about to leave town for a few days, but once back I have my next project!

George, I remember you've recounted that very important story before (now that you mention it) and I'll check those other postings as well.

Ralph

[Dave D]

The only thing I HADN'T done was disassemble the governor. When I did, I found that those Triumph governor springs had an oval hole on one end, and a round hole on the other. One of them was backwards. I reversed the governor spring and reassembled everything. The machine has run perfectly for about 5 years now.

George P.[/quote]

How do you know which end takes the oval hole? Maybe you had one correct spring and two that were incorrect. Or, maybe it does not matter as long as they are all the same way.
Dave D

[phonogfp]

How do you know which end takes the oval hole? Maybe you had one correct spring and two that were incorrect. Or, maybe it does not matter as long as they are all the same way.
Dave D

That thought occurred to me at the time, but I went with the simpler fix first.

George P.

[pughphonos]

Hi All --

My Triumph has been playing beautifully for a couple weeks now, but if she has those slow-ups again I will remove the governor and check out to see if the various oblong metal strips are oriented properly.

I was wondering--and so might as well ask: how many of the Edison cylinder machine governors were interchangeable? i.e., would governors from Standards work on Triumphs, etc.?

Ralph