Odd Observation With Lakeside/US Everlasting Cylinder Play

[FellowCollector]

This is a really odd one...here goes...

First, I've been collecting a looooong time and have a pretty large collection of Lakeside, US Everlasting and Albany Indestructible cylinders in both 2 minute and 4 minute. I sincerely appreciate these cylinders for their clarity, volume and durability. Almost all were exremely well recorded.

Anyway, today I decided to play one of my Lakeside 4 minute cylinders, "Let Me Call You Sweetheart" (by Syracuse NY native, George Ballard). It's one my favorite recordings of the song and I selected one of my Edison Triumphs (a model D2) with O reproducer to play the cylinder.

The cylinder is in perfect condition and played beautifully until about ¾ through when it skipped a groove and then again and then again. All of my Triumphs are in perfect working order and play my Edison Blue Amberol cylinders perfectly. But I've found, as many of you have as well, that many (not all, but many!) 4 minute Lakeside, US Everlasting and Albany Indestructible cylinders have a problem playing all the way through without jumping a groove.

Why? Celluloid shrinkage has been suggested as the culprit for this. And if you carefully watch the reproducer limit loop pin during play of these cylinders you will see that the limit pin gradually moves laterally (rather than staying in the neutral or middle position) until the pin nudges against the limit loop thereby resulting in the jump or skipped groove.

So here is the anomaly...

I took this very same cylinder and played it on one of my Amberola 50 phonographs and it played completely through PERFECTLY. Played it again on the Triumph...same skipping. Played it on another Triumph in the collection...same skipping. Played it on an Amberola 30 and no problem....HUH??

What in the world is going on here... The O is obviously an earlier reproducer than the Diamond C but the limit loop, limit pin, limit pin centering at beginning of play is all the same.

Any ideas? Sean? Anybody have a clue what is happening? The phonographs should play exactly the same since all else is equal except the O has a sapphire stylus and lighter weight. Shouldn't matter.

Thanks,
Doug

[Panatropia]

I've had similar issues. Celluloid indestructible can indeed suffer from shrinkage, with weak groove walls being easily skipped over with a light stylus weight, in addition to many barely noticeable flat spots where portions of the record's surface are actually flat.
The Amberola's stylus weight is heavier. Has more mass than the O.
Interestingly, my Columbia BF with spring tension stylus will generally play indestructibles that may skip on my Edison with a model C or H.
These are solely my own empirical observations and conclusions.

[phonogfp]

To add to Panatropia's observations, bear in mind that the sapphire stylus on a Model O is elliptical, while the stylus of a Diamond C is conical. The slightly shrunken groove of the record may not handle one as well as the other.

Also - a long shot... Your machines are kept in excellent running order, so this probably doesn't apply, but if the hinge block of the O is just a tad tighter than that of the Diamond C, or perhaps needs a bit of lubrication, that extra inertia could make a difference too.

George P.

[Yamaphone]

I have observed the same problem with the Indestructible type cylinders. You can see, by observing the weight limit loop and screw, the carriage and reproducer advancing faster than the record grooves due to the cylinder shrinkage. With a Triumph or Home Phonograph, when you see the carriage and reproducer advancing more than the record, you can lift the half-nut just enough to disengage the feed screw. This will stop the carriage and reproducer movement and you will see the limit loop moving back to where it should be in relation to the screw. Then, releasing the half-nut will again cause the carriage and reproducer to resume their movement. Doing this just once per play has so far been enough to prevent skipping when playing a record.

Dan Z.

[FellowCollector]

Thanks for all of the input. I had wondered myself whether the Diamond A, B and C reproducers with their heavier weight might help track the grooves of these cylinders better. The heavier weight definitely seems to help some of these cylinders play completely through with no problem but on my Edison Opera with the Diamond A reproducer, for example, I still get a jumped groove near the end of play on many of these cylinders.

George makes an excellent point with regard to the styli on the earlier O reproducer versus the Diamond reproducers and navigating grooves that have changed over time. This surely must have an effect on play of these cylinders.

Dan, I will try your idea of lifting the half nut but I'm not completely understanding whether you are doing this during play or at the start of play.

In years past, I have manually positioned the limit pin to the extreme opposite side of limit loop and carefully lowered the reproducer onto the beginning cylinder groove. This works but it seems crazy to have to go through such a process to play a cylinder completely through.

I will always wonder why the celluloid in Edison's Blue Amberol cylinders has apparently not shrunk (or has not shrunk enough to cause playback problems) while the celluloid in Lakeside, US Everlasting/Albany Indestructible cylinders has.

It's also odd to me that some Lakeside/US Everlasting/Albany 4 minute cylinders play perfectly well from start to finish on any of my phonographs capable of playing 4 minute cylinders. The fact that some Lakeside/US Everlasting/Albany 2 minute cylinders in perfect playing condition have problems as well adds more confusion.

Thanks again for the input!

Doug

[OrthoSean]

the stylus of a Diamond C is conical. The slightly shrunken groove of the record may not handle one as well as the other.

George P.

George beat me to it. I've actually been in the process of going through my collection and playing LOTS of these US Everlastings, Albany Indestructibles and Lamberts. Most of mine play without issue, but I've got come across a few that don't track through on my Triumph using the O, but switch to a Diamond B and most of them are fine that way, including two minute ones. It's too bad, though, one particular 4 minute I've got of "Hello Frisco" by Arthur Collins is a blue Oxford issue that skips like crazy no matter what. A few days later in another box, I found a regular black celluloid issue that plays great, so my efforts have at least been paying off with this rather large undertaking!

Sean

[FellowCollector]

George beat me to it. I've actually been in the process of going through my collection and playing LOTS of these US Everlastings, Albany Indestructibles and Lamberts. Most of mine play without issue, but I've got come across a few that don't track through on my Triumph using the O, but switch to a Diamond B and most of them are fine that way, including two minute ones. It's too bad, though, one particular 4 minute I've got of "Hello Frisco" by Arthur Collins is a blue Oxford issue that skips like crazy no matter what. A few days later in another box, I found a regular black celluloid issue that plays great, so my efforts have at least been paying off with this rather large undertaking!

Thanks for your input, Sean. I'm also hoping to compare play of different Lakeside/US Everlasting/Albany 4 minute cylinders using different Edison cylinder reproducers I have here and try to figure out which ones seem to do well and why others do not.

Regarding the Oxford (Albany) blue celluloid cylinders, I completely agree with your comment on the skipping problems. In fact, I have very, very few of these blue Oxfords cylinders that play completely through without skipping a groove at all on any phonograph! One blue Oxford cylinder that I do have that plays well (and that comes to mind) is one of the several in the 'Blitz and Blatz' selections on Albany: "Blitz and Blatz Among The Indians" which plays very well. I suspect it does because the recorded grooves are quite prominent unlike most blue Oxfords that seem to have very shallow recorded grooves. Perhaps the blue celluloid that was used for the Oxfords is gradually flattening out thus slowly removing the grooves similar to what happened with the Victor Home Recording discs - even though they're made of different surface materials - but who knows.

Doug

[edisonclassm]

I've been collecting for over 50 years. US everlasting records 50 years ago did not have this problem. It has been within the last 10 years that this problem has cropped up. Because in US records, the celluloid is not folded over on the ends and therefore unrestricted, it has a greater tendency to shrink resulting in a different thread pitch which is supposed to be 100TPI. The grooves are also becoming more shallow as well. The stylus is no longer dimensionally correct so it has a harder time tracking the groove. Also surface abnormalities are a common cause for the record to skip while playing. The most stable celluloid records are Edison followed by Indestructables. The quality of the celluloid used in Indestructables is not all that good but because they are folded over on the ends, it has a lower tendency to shrink lengthwise. Their grooves however become shallow therefore degrading the quality of the recording. Unfortunately all cylinder recordings are self destructing and will be rendered useless in the future so it's imperative to transfer these historical recordings to a more permanent medium for future generations.

[FellowCollector]

US everlasting records 50 years ago did not have this problem. It has been within the last 10 years that this problem has cropped up.

Thanks for your comments!

Interesting...I have always assumed that the problem with play of these cylinders resulting from celluloid shrinkage was noticed much longer ago. I'm sure that I have encountered the skipped groove issues with these cylinders much longer ago than that but I continue to be puzzled that some cylinder phonograph/reproducer configurations play the cylinders perfectly while similar phonographs with the same type of reproducer do not.

And added to the playback problems with US Everlasting and Lakeside cylinders is the dreaded celluloid split

See pictures below...

I can't tell you how many times over the years I have found an interesting title on Lakeside or US Everlasting cylinder and when I pull it out of its original cylinder box....

OHHHHH NOOOOOOOO! The celluloid skin stays inside the box and I find that I have pulled out only the core!

The dreaded (complete) celluloid split also happens with Edison Blue Amberol cylinders but not quite as often IMO.

And I've never seen this split occur with Albany Indestructible cylinders in spite of their heavy cardboard core that expands a LOT when they are exposed to water or heavy moisture. The metal rings on each end of the core seem to keep lengthwise splitting under control. Using the metal rings on the Albany cylinders was a great idea...UNTIL...you find one that has a cardboard core that has expanded due to water or moisture! You end up removing almost ALL of the cardboard core in order to get it mounted on the mandrel! What a mess!

Doug

[clevelander]

I have had this problem with several Lambert cored cylinders splitting lengthways.
I have stopped buying them, concentrating on earlier pink, brown and black uncored examples.
Alistair.