Wrong music on B.A. cylinder!

[marcapra]

I just got a B.A. Concert cylinder 28168 from Nauck's auction. The top of the lid says "28168 Andante Cantabile - Quartet op. 11 (Tschaikovsky) String Quartet - The Hoffmann Quartet." The cylinder itself says "28168 Andante-Quartette in E Flat Major Hoffmann Quartette".

So I put the B.A. on my Opera expecting to hear the beautiful, well-known 2nd movement from Tchaikovsky's String Quartet No. 1, the Andante Cantabile. But instead of hearing Tchaikovsky, I heard what sounded to me like Haydn. So I immediately went to my Edison Blue Amberol Cylinders catalog by Allen Sutton. On page 281, this cylinder is listed as Quartet in E Flat Major (Von Dittensdorf) (sic). Obviously, this is a typo for Von Dittersdorf. Von Dittersdorf did compose a String Quartet in E Flat Major, but it has only three movements and no Andante movement. So I checked my hunch that it might be Haydn, and looked up his String Quartet in E Flat Major on Youtube. I found the "Andante", really a Largo, which is the third movement, and sure enough, there was the music that is on this cylinder. It is the Largo, albeit a cut-down version due to the 4 minute format, from Haydn's String Quartet In E flat Major Opus 33, No. 2 'The Joke'. I wonder how did Von Dittersdorf get into Mr. Sutton's book, and how did the Edison factory get the title wrong on the cylinder box in the first place? The Edison Co. even advertised this cylinder as being Tchaikovsky's Andante Cantabile in their record flyers and catalogs.

[Wagnerian]

That's just one of those mysteries that makes our hobby so fascinating.

Thanks for tracking down what the music actually was, it's nice now to know it is actually by Haydn but how on earth did the Edison company make such a total error in advertising it as a completely different piece of music. Whatever the title, it clearly wasn't by Tchaikovsky. I don't know where the idea that it was actually by Von Dittersdorf comes from either but it is widely reported as such by amongst others, Alan Sutton, Ron Defleson and Ernie Bayly here in the UK.

Similary but on a lesser scale, BA 28223 and BA 1898 are descibed as the Gloria from the Twelfth Mass or Missa Longa by Mozart. A "Gloria" it is but "Mozart" it certainly ain't. In fact its been known not to be by Mozart since at least the mid 19th Century.

All fascinating stuff

TW-W

[epigramophone]

So BA28168 is part of the Haydn String Quartet known as "The Joke". Looks like Edison had the last laugh .

[phonojim]

Wagnerian posted:

Similary but on a lesser scale, BA 28223 and BA 1898 are descibed as the Gloria from the Twelfth Mass or Missa Longa by Mozart. A "Gloria" it is but "Mozart" it certainly ain't. In fact its been known not to be by Mozart since at least the mid 19th Century.

I have had a copy of BA 1898 (without the lid) for many years so I never thought too much about the composer - I simply like the piece and have never thought any more about it. Now that you have raised the issue, it's bothering me and I would like to know more about it - composer and information about "The 12th Mass" from which it was excerpted. Also, is 28223 a renumbering of 1898, a direct recorded cylinder, or is it a dub from DD 80292 by The Gregorian Choir? BTW: the DD label gives credit to Mozart.

thanks,
Jim

[marcapra]

Whatever the title, it clearly wasn't by Tchaikovsky. I don't know where the idea that it was actually by Von Dittersdorf comes from either but it is widely reported as such by amongst others, Alan Sutton, Ron Defleson and Ernie Bayly here in the UK.

I will bet that not all of those three writers independently checked the music on this cylinder to see if it really was Von Dittersdorf. Probably there was someone who noticed it obviously was not Tchaikovsky, and then just attributed it to Von Dittersdorf because he also wrote a string quartet in E flat major. Also, it seems unlikely that they would make a recording of so obscure a composer as Von Dittersdorf back in 1913. The Largo from Haydn's "Joke" quartet is much more likely, and the music seems to match. If you listen to the Joke Quartet on Youtube you will note some differences in the music, but you are comparing a complete version against a very abbreviated version on the B.A. However, if any of you can listen to the cylinder and the Haydn quartet on Youtube and give your own conclusion, I would appreciate it.

If you want to listen to the Largo movement on Youtube, it starts at 8:12:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA2euxp3b3Y

And here is the cylinder, which Sutton and others attribute to Von Dittersdorf:

http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/searc ... linder0515

Marc

[marcapra]

Well, now I guess I'm going to have to eat a little crow! After further research and a little studying of the Haydn score, I now realize that I was wrong. Although similar in mood, the music is not by Haydn. The Edison cylinder 28168 is not the slow movement from Haydn's "Joke" quartet! It actually is by Karl Ditters Von Dittersdorf, (1739-1799), but is not from his String Quartet No. 5 in E Flat Major. It is the Andante movement from his String Quartet No. 2 in B Flat Major. I don't have the score to this quartet, so it is possible that the Andante movement is in E Flat Major. You can hear it here:

The Andante movement starts at 7:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgV6lpq7cXs

[Wagnerian]

Wagnerian posted:

Similary but on a lesser scale, BA 28223 and BA 1898 are descibed as the Gloria from the Twelfth Mass or Missa Longa by Mozart. A "Gloria" it is but "Mozart" it certainly ain't. In fact its been known not to be by Mozart since at least the mid 19th Century.

I have had a copy of BA 1898 (without the lid) for many years so I never thought too much about the composer - I simply like the piece and have never thought any more about it. Now that you have raised the issue, it's bothering me and I would like to know more about it - composer and information about "The 12th Mass" from which it was excerpted. Also, is 28223 a renumbering of 1898, a direct recorded cylinder, or is it a dub from DD 80292 by The Gregorian Choir? BTW: the DD label gives credit to Mozart.

thanks,
Jim

Dear Jim,

BA 28223 is indeed a dub from DD80292 but it is not by Mozart. To be fair, in the early 19th Century, it was considered to be by Mozart although there was, even then, considerable doubt of the matter. By the mid 19th Century it was concluded that it definitely was not by Mozart.

BA1898 is a re-issue of Wax Amberol 516 which was originally listed in EPM in July 1910 as part of a "Special Sacred List" of "Catholic Hymns"(!)

All the best

Tim W-W