Columbia 117 series automatic brake

[CharliePhono]

Any advice appreciated on how to service/fix the auto brake on my 117a Viva Tonal. It worked briefly when I got it, then ceased altogether. This may be the first iteration of their auto-braking system, and I am to understand they can be fiendish at best (much like the first version of this on HMV portables). I've tried adjusting the fork which the tone arm engages, etc., and no matter what I do, the only thing that will (nearly always) trip the brake is when I manually push the fork to the extreme left, which would mean the tone arm would have to be practically over the spindle for the brake to function.

It would be nice to have it functional again. I'm definitely getting my exercise during evening listening sessions, but I'm lazy and would like the device to stop after playing a record! Thanks for any tips, tricks or advice.

[Phono48]

If this the brake I'm thinking of, (same as that on the 163 portable?) then there are two very fragile fibre washers, one either side of the long arm that actuates the brake. They need to be very carefully taken off and cleaned with a cotton bud dipped in white spirit or isoprop. Also the surfaces they contact, i.e. the underside of the long arm, and the base plate, need a light scoring with a fairly rough sandpaper, as the brake relies on friction alone, and no part of it should be oiled or greased.

[CharliePhono]

If this the brake I'm thinking of, (same as that on the 163 portable?) then there are two very fragile fibre washers, one either side of the long arm that actuates the brake. They need to be very carefully taken off and cleaned with a cotton bud dipped in white spirit or isoprop. Also the surfaces they contact, i.e. the underside of the long arm, and the base plate, need a light scoring with a fairly rough sandpaper, as the brake relies on friction alone, and no part of it should be oiled or greased.

Many thanks, Phono48. I will have opportunity to do some tinkering this coming weekend and will indeed check into that. Your input is appreciated!

[CharliePhono]

If this the brake I'm thinking of, (same as that on the 163 portable?) then there are two very fragile fibre washers, one either side of the long arm that actuates the brake. They need to be very carefully taken off and cleaned with a cotton bud dipped in white spirit or isoprop. Also the surfaces they contact, i.e. the underside of the long arm, and the base plate, need a light scoring with a fairly rough sandpaper, as the brake relies on friction alone, and no part of it should be oiled or greased.

Hello again P48,

Had a chance to work on the Columbia 117a yesterday. The auto brake is not like what you described. The long arm that actuates the brake actually is flattened at the end like a paddle and works to engage a stop-ring with a protrusion on it to effect braking of the turntable. However, there are two fiber-appearing washers, like collars, which surround the spindle (one of which has the protrusion), and I believe they may be of the same composition as the washers you alluded to above. They had indeed become "wet" with oil. I sparingly used some carb cleaner to de-oil/de-grease them, then employed the cotton bud with iso alcohol to do a final cleaning. That said, the brake actuates just fine when the paddle engages the protrusion, braking the turntable as designed.

What is troublesome is the yoke to which the long actuating arm attaches to. After dozens of adjustments, the best I could come up with was a machine that stops very occasionally. I am unaware if this machine's auto-stop mechanism works only with records with the spiral out-groove or if it was designed for all records. Being that it is a Columbia -- and I do have Columbia records which have no out-groove -- one would assume it should stop with those as well, but it does not. I've no real idea how to adjust the screw/washer assembly on the yoke, so have just used trial and error. Which has resulted in essentially error. Any ideas?

[gramophone-georg]

Charlie: Am I seeing a split in the plastic spindle ring with the trip on it? This is the issue I have on mine- the ring has developed a split, which allows the spindle to just spin away inside the ring most- but not all- of the time.

[CharliePhono]

Charlie: Am I seeing a split in the plastic spindle ring with the trip on it? This is the issue I have on mine- the ring has developed a split, which allows the spindle to just spin away inside the ring most- but not all- of the time.

It does appear so, yet since the cleaning, the spindle stops perfectly each time the disc(s) are actuated by that long arm. It's the yoke which has a case of the intermittents, working sometimes and sometimes not. It seems to have something to do with that screw and nut adjustment beside the yoke -- or perhaps there is an issue in the assembly beneath the clip ring which is slipping. I'm not sure. I'm about ready to say to hell with automatic braking on this thing, ha. This machine left the factory in 1929 (dated underneath the case), and I believe this was the first iteration of this type of brake, which was, I also believe, similar to the first auto-brake on the HMV 102 series. I had one of those, and it too refused to cooperate with all manner of tinkering, working only occasionally.

[gramophone-georg]

Charlie: Am I seeing a split in the plastic spindle ring with the trip on it? This is the issue I have on mine- the ring has developed a split, which allows the spindle to just spin away inside the ring most- but not all- of the time.

It does appear so, yet since the cleaning, the spindle stops perfectly each time the disc(s) are actuated by that long arm. It's the yoke which has a case of the intermittents, working sometimes and sometimes not. It seems to have something to do with that screw and nut adjustment beside the yoke -- or perhaps there is an issue in the assembly beneath the clip ring which is slipping. I'm not sure. I'm about ready to say to hell with automatic braking on this thing, ha. This machine left the factory in 1929 (dated underneath the case), and I believe this was the first iteration of this type of brake, which was, I also believe, similar to the first auto-brake on the HMV 102 series. I had one of those, and it too refused to cooperate with all manner of tinkering, working only occasionally.

Perhaps taking it all apart and roughing- up all the contact areas (metal and washer) at the pivot are in order if it is the yoke that slips. I'm also wondering if that little adjustable stop might be maladjusted slightly.

[CharliePhono]

Charlie: Am I seeing a split in the plastic spindle ring with the trip on it? This is the issue I have on mine- the ring has developed a split, which allows the spindle to just spin away inside the ring most- but not all- of the time.

It does appear so, yet since the cleaning, the spindle stops perfectly each time the disc(s) are actuated by that long arm. It's the yoke which has a case of the intermittents, working sometimes and sometimes not. It seems to have something to do with that screw and nut adjustment beside the yoke -- or perhaps there is an issue in the assembly beneath the clip ring which is slipping. I'm not sure. I'm about ready to say to hell with automatic braking on this thing, ha. This machine left the factory in 1929 (dated underneath the case), and I believe this was the first iteration of this type of brake, which was, I also believe, similar to the first auto-brake on the HMV 102 series. I had one of those, and it too refused to cooperate with all manner of tinkering, working only occasionally.

Perhaps taking it all apart and roughing- up all the contact areas (metal and washer) at the pivot are in order if it is the yoke that slips. I'm also wondering if that little adjustable stop might be maladjusted slightly.

That, sir, is the next step. Great minds think alike!

[Phono48]

The auto brake is not like what you described.
What is troublesome is the yoke to which the long actuating arm attaches to. After dozens of adjustments, the best I could come up with was a machine that stops very occasionally. I am unaware if this machine's auto-stop mechanism works only with records with the spiral out-groove or if it was designed for all records. Being that it is a Columbia -- and I do have Columbia records which have no out-groove -- one would assume it should stop with those as well, but it does not. I've no real idea how to adjust the screw/washer assembly on the yoke, so have just used trial and error. Which has resulted in essentially error. Any ideas?

That's exactly the brake I had in mind, and no, it doesn't work on records that have no run-out. It's the rapid movement of the arm that causes the long arm to come into contact with thee plastic boss on the turntable spindle. While the arm is moving very slowly across the record, the long arm contacts the plastic boss by only a tiny amount, and the boss kicks the long arm out of the way, so with a record minus a run out groove, there is no rapid movement of the arm to activate the brake. If you have removed and cleaned the fibre washers, all should now be working, but as it's obviously not,I would try abrading the contacting surfaces.

Barry

[CharliePhono]

The auto brake is not like what you described.
What is troublesome is the yoke to which the long actuating arm attaches to. After dozens of adjustments, the best I could come up with was a machine that stops very occasionally. I am unaware if this machine's auto-stop mechanism works only with records with the spiral out-groove or if it was designed for all records. Being that it is a Columbia -- and I do have Columbia records which have no out-groove -- one would assume it should stop with those as well, but it does not. I've no real idea how to adjust the screw/washer assembly on the yoke, so have just used trial and error. Which has resulted in essentially error. Any ideas?

That's exactly the brake I had in mind, and no, it doesn't work on records that have no run-out. It's the rapid movement of the arm that causes the long arm to come into contact with thee plastic boss on the turntable spindle. While the arm is moving very slowly across the record, the long arm contacts the plastic boss by only a tiny amount, and the boss kicks the long arm out of the way, so with a record minus a run out groove, there is no rapid movement of the arm to activate the brake. If you have removed and cleaned the fibre washers, all should now be working, but as it's obviously not,I would try abrading the contacting surfaces.

Barry

Hello Barry, and my apology. It was a case of my not having a lot of experience with these types of brakes in addition to my thinking you were describing the circular parts surrounding the spindle and not at the distal end of the actuation arm. And yes, that will be disassembled and serviced very soon. I don't know why I didn't pinpoint the issue to that earlier. Thus is the value of this board and its members -- no matter how versed or how long one has been in this hobby, there's always something "new." Nevertheless, the plastic boss assembly did need a good cleaning, which it received. One more step to getting this brake functioning. Again, my sincere thanks to you and to all who contributed to this thread.

Regards,
Charlie