New member: early orchestral recordings

[Menophanes]

Although I am the newest of the new in this Forum, I have been collecting old records for well over fifty years, beginning when I was about ten. My favourite field is a rather unusual one, namely early orchestral and chamber-music recordings (including multiple-disc sets), especially those dating from before the introduction of electrical recording. I do not think there are any great rarities in my collection, but it does include some oddities such as a 1925 Edison-Bell version of Elgar's Dream of Gerontius (or at least about three-quarters of it) performed by a chorus numbering eight singers and an orchestra of twenty-five. (The album, admirably, gives all the words and includes detailed references to the vocal score to show where cuts have been made.) Besides these, my records include some early operatic items and a handful of seven-inch Berliners, the oldest dating from May 1896, as well as a few dozen cylinders.

People sometimes wonder how I can bear to listen to such imperfect recordings; one hi-fi-obsessed friend regards me almost as a traitor to humanity! I can only say that as long as a recording is reasonably distinct and not too harsh and shallow my ears seem to be able to 'translate' it, even to the extent of mentally filling in missing resonance, missing bass tones and even missing instruments. I shall be interested to know what other members think on this point.

My workhorse gramophone is an HMV Model 109 'table grand', but I shall say more about this and other machines in the appropriate section of the board.

Oliver Mundy.

[CarlosV]

Welcome to the forum, Oliver!

Fortunately for you, your area of musical interest is one of the least popular amongst collectors, beating only Hawaiian music. This lack of interest makes prices of record sets of classical music drop significantly in comparison to popular music or opera. The number of available discs in good playable condition is also relatively large, showing that most original owners did not play them that often. I bought some months ago a large collection which cost me basically the shipping, as the collection itself (which belonged to an Irish Earl) was quite inexpensive, with discs in pristine condition, stored neatly in dedicated wooden boxes. I admit I haven't played many of them, for the same reasons you state: it is not easy to haul around these massive boxes and it is inconvenient to replace discs so frequently to play a single movement of a symphony. In my case, I normally utilize thorn needles, which creates the additional interruption of the pause for sharpening. It is however the lo-fi sound coming from the gramophone that makes their playing attractive to me, and in some cases the different interpretation from what we can hear in modern recordings.

[Orchorsol]

Welcome Oliver!

I too have and enjoy a lot of orchestral and chamber music on 78s, some acoustic - although I listen to other genres more. Many aspects excite me but one area I'm particularly keen on is the composers of the period, especially some of the lesser known ones - Frank Bridge and E J Moeran are two examples that come to mind.

I have a large amount of spare records for disposal - a friend has first call on some of them but by all means send me a PM if of interest.

[gramophone-georg]

I collect and enjoy these as well. What I find interesting is how the interpretations of these works changes over the decades. I find the earlier ones more "raw" and pleasing.

[Menophanes]

Thank you all for your friendly words.

Orchorsol: I have Bridge's early recording (with the London Symphony Orchestra, for Columbia) of The Sea. I gather he was quite a practised conductor, with a speciality of stepping in at short notice when another conductor was indisposed. Unfortunately I have to be very sparing now in adding to my collection, since between my records and machines and clocks and microscopes and Victorian furniture, my wife's vast collection of cat statuettes, both our books, and our five cats, our three-bedroom house is already totally uninhabitable by any reasonable human standard.

gramophone-georg: I too often find that the earliest recordings are the most satisfying, and all the more so if the playing is not as polished as we would now expect. I like to be able to feel that the musicians are not superior beings but members of the same species as myself!

CarlosV: Give you joy of your Irish collection! I think it is true that one rarely finds badly worn or abused records in an album. I have a notion that record-collectors took their activity more seriously and (so to speak) more interactively in the 78rpm era then they do now, no doubt precisely because playing the records was far from being the flick-of-the-wrist process that it is today. In my latest acquisition, Bruno Walter's 1946 Columbia set of Mahler's fourth symphony, I found a sheet of music-paper on which the first owner had written out in beautifully tidy notation all the principal motifs from each movement. Other records have hand-written labels showing exactly when they were bought; I wish this were a more common practice!

Oliver Mundy.

[CarlosV]

In my latest acquisition, Bruno Walter's 1946 Columbia set of Mahler's fourth symphony, I found a sheet of music-paper on which the first owner had written out in beautifully tidy notation all the principal motifs from each movement. Other records have hand-written labels showing exactly when they were bought; I wish this were a more common practice!

Oliver Mundy.

That's interesting, Oliver. I recently bought some records that were annotated with the individual speed to be played, and the respective key that corresponds to that speed. These are acoustic records from the first decade of last century, so it is expected that individual speed would vary from record to record - I kept the annotations, but did not adjust the speeds when I played them, my ears are not sensitive to small pitch changes.
I have also some records in which the owner glued little typed labels with the personnel snd the date of recording (these are jazz records).

[Orchorsol]

I do enjoy finding those traces of previous owners and their discernment and care. I have many sleeves annotated with preference of needle (fibre, half-tone etc) and some with a series of "cleaned & played / date" entries!

Bridge's "The Sea" is wonderful. My set came from Raymond Glaspole - not a lucky cheap find, but a must. I also have some records of the English String Quartet in which he played, including his Phantasie and his instrumental arrangement of Cherry Ripe - also wonderful.

[Wagnerian]

Dear Oliver,

Just to echo other posters, welcome to the Forum. I have found it to be a friendly place and an invaluable source of information as well as exchanging ideas and data.

I too am interested in acoustic recordings of instrumental and orchestral music, so I wouldn't think there is anything odd in that at all!I am particularly fond of those recordings where the composer has an input whether actually conducting or just supervising, so you can probably tell I like 20th Century British music. A paticular treasure (to me at least) is Rutland Boughton conducting two short orchestral arrangements from his opera The Immortal Hour on Columbia No.935 with the LSO. If you don't already have it, it's a lovely recording and turns up reasonably frequently.

All the best

Tim W-W

[Menophanes]

I know that record, Tim: a fairly rough copy, but playable, at least by my standards.

Edward German was another composer who took very well to conducting on record in the early days. I know his delightful Merry England (1918) only from a transcript, but I have got two of the Henry VIII dances somewhere.

Oliver Mundy.

[dd_calcutta]

Hi All,

I do have a collection of Orchestra Recordings which came from a Estate sale. I personally collect early Indian recordings (C 1900) and as such can sell the lot at any reasonable offer. The collection consists of 14 records - all 12 inch and 78 rpm from HMV and Columbia. BBC Symphony, London Philharmonic, San Francisco Symphony, Liverpool Philharmonic, Halle Orchestra, Boston Promenade etc. If interested please do message me for the complete details.


Thanks.

DD