Machine identification assistance

[cmk8895]

Hello all. First post.

I am having a heck of a time identifying the attached machine. It was a random find for a good deal, but I'm torn between a refitted Concert and a Spring Motor. What are your guys' thoughts?

Front

Model C reproducer. (Don't know if that's what came with it, but I'm guessing not since there is a shaver and the C doesn't record.)
Doesn't appear to be the regular Concert conversion reproducer retainer.
Most of the detailing around the edge of the lower baseplate is gone, but it matches the design of the upper. The upper Thomas A Edison gold is also rubbed away.
No "Spring Machine" plates in the regular locations.
16" wide on the lowermost wooden frame.
Bedplate is not attached to case and the holes don't appear to have ever had screws in them.

Nameplate

Nameplate with no name at all.
There are some conspicuous marks around patent dates that almost look like a mechanical removal of info, but the dates are also centered left to right, so it might just be coincidence.
Awfully high SN. (Motor SN 18939.)

End 1

End view. Mandrel offset to the front.
Thumbscrew and spring missing from shaver.
A tiny shade over 12" on the bottom most case base which leads me to a Concert case.

End 2

More "end on" view showing offset of mandrel.
Curvature of the bar underneath the mandrel lock doesn't seem as "deep" as a Concert would be.

Motor

Motor. I don't know much about motors other than it's a 3 spring and the governor has 3 cylinders.

The poor thing needs some work. The leaf spring that holds the half nuts is all messed up and needs replaced for proper tracking. And there is no cover top at all. Looking for a cover is what led me to try to determine what the heck this machine actually is.

Thanks a bunch. I'm looking forward to your thoughts!

[phonogfp]

The mechanism is a relatively early (1901-02) Edison Triumph. The cabinet is a reproduction for a Spring Motor (the predecessor to the Triumph). Although the Triumph mechanism is quite similar to the late Spring Motor, you noticed one of the differences: holes in the corners of the bedplate for screws. Spring Motors don't have them.

I'd recommend you locate a Triumph cabinet (it will have a banner decal on the front) and sell the reproduction Spring Motor cabinet.

The motor looks fine, original to the upper works, and with that Model C reproducer (also correct for the upper works) you'll have one of the best cylinder machines available.

Also - the half-nut spring was probably bent by someone who didn't understand that the tension is adjusted by loosening the screw at the rear of the carriage and rotating the carriage on the sleeve. You can probably flatten the half-nut spring in a vice and use it.

George P.

[cmk8895]

Well I admit that that didn't cross my mind! Thanks so much.

May I ask how you identified the case as a reproduction? I'm not at all familiar with the cases with drawers, so I'd love to learn.

You are correct on the spring. It's terribly bent. But also the holes are no longer tight so the entire spring can "rotate" a little bit at the back end causing the half nuts to not lay true. Very sad story. I'll fiddle a bit, but it's pretty torn up, so I may end up replacing it anyway. After finding a nice Triumph case!

Matthew

[Phonofreak]

If this was an original case, the wood is Quartered White Oak. The case shown, is made of plain Red Oak.
Harvey Kravitz

[phonogfp]

Harvey's right - the wood grain gives it away. In addition, the hardware - although close - isn't quite the same as original.

You have the makings of a good Triumph; all you need is a proper cabinet, and until then, the reproduction Spring Motor will suffice...

George P.

[cmk8895]

Thank you gentlemen!

I'm now on the search for the right case for my baby and working on the other issues.

George: I didn't realize that the sleeve turned in the carriage to adjust the tension on the half-nuts. It is quite firmly stuck in there, so it didn't occur to me. I have it soaking in some Kroil now to loosen it up. Once loose I'll flatten out that leaf spring and try it out again.

Thanks again for your help. I'm sure I'll have more questions along the way. Being an engineer I usually just "figure it out," so I am excited to have an actual resource for top notch information.

Matthew

[phonogfp]

Happy to help, Matthew. Good luck!

George P.