Future of the hobby

[krkey1]

I have been thinking about this and some problems the hobby will face in the future.

We will have the ongoing battle with crapophones and the frakenphone but those are not a danger to collectors on forums such as this. We know what the right machines look like. If we have a question we can always ask people on here. We just need to find a way to disseminate our knowledge so that newbies to the hobby can super quickly find it. I think we also might want to keep a list of ebay sellers who knowingly sell those items.

I present though this hobby is about to face new challenges from the following machines I shall describe below:

Restorophone.

An original machine but almost 100% restored. We know now with digital scanning that the problem which once plagued decals is pretty much gone. The reproduction ones for sale look just like the originals. We also know it is possible to exactly match original paints now. We can match original nickel plating etc. We know ways to make any finish look completely original.

What happens when down the road we have one of these machines as being presented as just a well conditioned original. What happens forty or fifty years down the road when these machines do acquire a genuine age patina.

Reprophone.

We all know about reproduction parts. We all know about the horns ( and cabinets) made by such artist as Gfell and Eduardo. As of now some reproduction parts look different than the original parts because we did not have computer scanners readily available to copy the originals but that is no longer true. What happens when we get reproduction parts that truly cannot be distinguished from the originals. What then happens when we get a machine when they are almost all reproduction. Especially if the machine has been both deliberately aged and allowed to truly age. How then do we tell them apart from the truly originals? We are going to face this problem down the road now with Eduardo and Gfell horns when they truly do age and look virtually identical to the originals. Remember Eduardo also makes cabinets.

How are we as a hobby to respond to these changes. I am open to suggestions.

[gramophone-georg]

I have been thinking about this and some problems the hobby will face in the future.

We will have the ongoing battle with crapophones and the frakenphone but those are not a danger to collectors on forums such as this. We know what the right machines look like. If we have a question we can always ask people on here. We just need to find a way to disseminate our knowledge so that newbies to the hobby can super quickly find it. I think we also might want to keep a list of ebay sellers who knowingly sell those items.

I present though this hobby is about to face new challenges from the following machines I shall describe below:

Restorophone.

An original machine but almost 100% restored. We know now with digital scanning that the problem which once plagued decals is pretty much gone. The reproduction ones for sale look just like the originals. We also know it is possible to exactly match original paints now. We can match original nickel plating etc. We know ways to make any finish look completely original.

What happens when down the road we have one of these machines as being presented as just a well conditioned original. What happens forty or fifty years down the road when these machines do acquire a genuine age patina.

Reprophone.

We all know about reproduction parts. We all know about the horns ( and cabinets) made by such artist as Gfell and Eduardo. As of now some reproduction parts look different than the original parts because we did not have computer scanners readily available to copy the originals but that is no longer true. What happens when we get reproduction parts that truly cannot be distinguished from the originals. What then happens when we get a machine when they are almost all reproduction. Especially if the machine has been both deliberately aged and allowed to truly age. How then do we tell them apart from the truly originals? We are going to face this problem down the road now with Eduardo and Gfell horns when they truly do age and look virtually identical to the originals. Remember Eduardo also makes cabinets.

How are we as a hobby to respond to these changes. I am open to suggestions.

At the risk of sounding trite I am going to say that I am in this hobby for relaxation and enjoyment, not stress and worry.

Reproduction machines have been around forever- for example, tinfoils and early Berliners. Some were done quite well, and I would be happy to have a well done repro rather than spending the large amount of money to get an original, especially if I'm not entirely sure if I'm not more "into" the concept than the reality of such a machine yet.

There will always be scammers. There will always be those sellers who honestly don't know. I think we have a good thing going in this forum, and while I completely understand what you are saying and agree with it, my dilemma is how much I really want to allow worrying about such things that are out of my control to interfere with the very real enjoyment that this hobby brings.

[Django]

This problem exists with nearly all forms of collectables. I have restored motorcycles and tried to use as many original or NOS parts as I could, but there is a limit with any machine, especially one that has gone through years of neglect and obsolescence. Some museum quality machines that you see may not be all original, but still physically correct. Most restored vehicles are only partially original.

The USS Constitution has very little original timber left. Same with the Charles W. Morgan. The rule with restoring boats is that the original boat has to be there as you build the new one. A replacement rib is much better than a broken rib.

The engine and transmission of an antique motorcycle is unlikely to have many original internal parts left. There are the exceptional survivors, but most had to be brought back from the dead.

If I have to make or rebuild a part, I feel a closer connection to the machine than if I had bought it ready to display. That said, I try not to over-restore. My Columbia BI with it's original oak horn has a rehydrated, smoothed and cleaned surface, but still original, wear marks and all. On the other hand, I am currently working on a machine that was as good as dead, so the over-restoration is really the only option, (parts married from a correct machine, new plating, new cabinet finish and some freshly made copy parts). It will be 90 or so percent a 1903 machine, but it will be displayed and played instead of being a donor.

Maybe people need to document the real survivors for the future. Or maybe experts can provide a certification as best they can. I agree with you that it is a problem, but it is a problem that we are not likely to prevent. It doesn't bother me if most of the machine has a history going back to the day that it left the factory as well as some replacement parts to keep it going. These machines were never meant to last this long or be collected and loved. They were a modern wonder destined to become obsolete, but the plan didn't work out, so here we are.

[gramophone-georg]

Django, I am a classic German automobile restorer by trade and I agree. With respect to restored machines... I have no problem with this if they are restored correctly and true to original- proper plating, proper finish, correct decals.

In both lines I run up against the "it's only original once!" crowd but if what you are looking at is dilapidated and worn that ship already sailed because dilapidated and worn isn't how it originally was.

[Django]

Django, I am a classic German automobile restorer by trade and I agree. With respect to restored machines... I have no problem with this if they are restored correctly and true to original- proper plating, proper finish, correct decals.

In both lines I run up against the "it's only original once!" crowd but if what you are looking at is dilapidated and worn that ship already sailed because dilapidated and worn isn't how it originally was.

Great answer.

[fran604g]

I would encourage all collectors to keep a journal, and document any changes made to original machines. Establish, and maintain provenance as best as reasonably possible. That will help future collectors.

I keep note cards with each of my machines.

I don't believe however there is any foolproof way to keep counterfeits from infiltrating any collectible or antique market.

[krkey1]

I am not arguing against restoration I am arguing against fraud. I have no problem with a beautifully restored machine that looks just like it did when it was sold in say 1903. However I have a huge problem with someone claiming the reasons it looks like it did new is that it was just that well cared for. That is fraud. Also for value purpose it should not be in the same category an an excellent condition original.

We all know sometimes we must use repro parts such as rubber gaskets. I have no problem with reproduction parts but I have a huge problem with someone claiming a reproduction part as an original.

I very much have a huge problem with a machine that is almost all reproduction parts ( for example horn and cabinet are repro) being passed off as an original. It isn't. It simply is a repro with some original parts to it. If I was to take original confederate uniform buttons and put them on a reproduction uniform it doesn't make the uniform original.

I think we as a hobby need to start more and more getting concerned about this because now the resources are available to deceive truly veteran collectors and this problem will only get worse.

A veteran collector falls for a crapophone, he should be required to eat it!

A veteran collector fall for a Eduardo cabinet expertly aged, now there is a problem...

[gramophone-georg]

I am not arguing against restoration I am arguing against fraud. I have no problem with a beautifully restored machine that looks just like it did when it was sold in say 1903. However I have a huge problem with someone claiming the reasons it looks like it did new is that it was just that well cared for. That is fraud. Also for value purpose it should not be in the same category an an excellent condition original.

We all know sometimes we must use repro parts such as rubber gaskets. I have no problem with reproduction parts but I have a huge problem with someone claiming a reproduction part as an original.

I very much have a huge problem with a machine that is almost all reproduction parts ( for example horn and cabinet are repro) being passed off as an original. It isn't. It simply is a repro with some original parts to it. If I was to take original confederate uniform buttons and put them on a reproduction uniform it doesn't make the uniform original.

I think we as a hobby need to start more and more getting concerned about this because now the resources are available to deceive truly veteran collectors and this problem will only get worse.

A veteran collector falls for a crapophone, he should be required to eat it!

A veteran collector fall for a Eduardo cabinet expertly aged, now there is a problem...

OK, so what's the solution?

[krkey1]

I do not know, unfortunately sometimes one can identify a problem and not have a clue about a solution.

[gramophone-georg]

I do not know, unfortunately sometimes one can identify a problem and not have a clue about a solution.

Speaking of Eduardo... one of my fondest pipe dreams is being able to find a "barn find" complete Vic 6, replate all the gold, and put it into an Eduardo cabinet with a matching lower Eduardo record cabinet and horn to be my living room showpiece... Eduardo's horns and cabinets are works of art in their own right and add value IMO.

Maybe I am part of the problem.