New member with an Edison C19. Is this stylus safe to use?

[lmester]

Hello everyone,

I have some basic newbie questions. My wife's grandfather bought this phonograph sometime in the 1920's. It had not been run for at least 20 years. I decided do some basic maintenance and then see if it still works. I found an Edison motor service manual on this MB that was very helpful.

Please excuse me if I'm using the wrong terminology. I repair antique mechanical clocks. I'll be describing this mechanism with those terms. The mechanism is similar except for it's size. Everything is huge! Mainsprings are insanely large! Also, clocks don't use a flyweight governor for time regulation. They only use governors for non-critical speed regulation in the strike or chime trains.

The bushings were as dry as a popcorn fart! Mainsprings were dry and jumpy. I did some basic cleaning with a rag and then Oiled the bushings. I then put a squirt of clock mainspring lube into each spring barrel. That was nice. A plug that you can unscrew to add some mainspring lube.

The flyweight governor was noisy and running too slow. I adjusted the shaft end play, weight position and shaft position. I also cleaned and oiled the friction pads. It's now running fairly quietly and at the correct 80 RPM with the speed adjust knob in the middle of it's range.

I then decided that I could now try playing a record on it. I realized that I'd never checked the stylus. I inspected it with a digital microscope. It has a triangle shape with a blunt tip. It does look worn but not broken off.

I went through the record collection that came with the machine. I picked the worst looking record to use for testing. It's very scratched and scuffed up. It played fine. No skipping and only a little hissing and some popping noises.

I think that the stylus is safe to use. I'd like some advice from the experts here.

Attached are some pictures including a microscope image of the stylus. What do you think about the condition of the stylus? I don't want to ruin the records that came with this machine.

Finally, I was really surprised at how loud the sound is. Good for a normal sized room. Compared to a modern sound system, it has absolutely no bass. It's still far better than What I expected to hear from 100 year old equipment!

[Lucius1958]

Check the stylus from various angles through the microscope.

Do you see a flat spot on the tip? If so, the stylus is worn, and should probably be replaced.

Another test is to place the stylus on the "dead wax" (the blank area between the end of the recording and the label), and let it run for a while. If you see any marks on the record, you should replace the stylus.

Bill

[fran604g]

Welcome to the forum!

Your Edison Diamond Disc Phonograph model C 19 "Chippendale" was the flagship of the company line of models, and was produced around June, 1919. I notice that the paperboard record dividers are missing in at least the top storage compartment, if you plan on restoring your C 19, and wish to replace them, I can help; contact me via PM here, or by email.

There is a vast amount of information here pertaining to the Chippendale. The model designation was changed from "C 250" to "C 19" in April 1919, but other than a few features, the two were -- for all intents and purposes -- identical. The record storage being the most prolific change for instance; the earlier 2-drawer storage system was changed to a vertical divider system.

If you're interested in learning more about the Chippendale C 250/C 19, I've conducted a study, of which a "data base" has been compiled here at the forum, and if you wish, you can participate in it, or merely read through the members posts and learn quite a lot from them. http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... =2&t=16837

Best,
Fran

[Jerry B.]

Welcome to the Forum. Both previous posts gave excellent advice. I've always liked the C19. Jerry Blais

[lmester]

Check the stylus from various angles through the microscope.

Do you see a flat spot on the tip? If so, the stylus is worn, and should probably be replaced.

Another test is to place the stylus on the "dead wax" (the blank area between the end of the recording and the label), and let it run for a while. If you see any marks on the record, you should replace the stylus.

Bill

Thank you for the help!

I did some more inspection with the microscope. I don't see a flat spot. I also did the "Dead wax" play test. I ran the stylus over the record several times and didn't see any damage. One interesting thing. I had to go through several records in the collection to find one that didn't already have spiral lines scratched into the "Dead wax" area. Possibly, the stylus had worn out and has been replaced. Maybe these records were played on another machine with a worn stylus. Maybe these have more popular music and have been played many times. No way for me to tell how this happened.

Also, I think that some of the records are very worn. After cleaning, I shined a light across the grooves. It looks like the black outer coating is worn through. I can see a dark brown color. From what I've read here, I think this may be the pressed wood core of the record. Is my guess correct?

For my first test after cleaning, oiling and adjusting the mechanism, I played one of the records that is in very bad condition. I've not yet tried to play any more of these bad records. I was then worried about destroying the record. From the little bit of research that I've done, it looks like records for this machine are usually inexpensive. $5 or so on the internet. Stylus and reproducer repair is very expensive. I also have some records with deep scratches. I've not yet tried to play any more of the records that are in the really worst condition. I'm probably worrying too much. I'm sure that when this machine was in regular use, all of these records were being played.

What is your suggestion for playing damaged, worn or scratched discs? What is safe to play?

I should probably make a catalog of the records that came with this machine. I expect that there is a database of Edison diamond discs somewhere on the internet. I may have a few rare records that are worth more than $5 and need to be carefully preserved.

[lmester]

Welcome to the forum!

Your Edison Diamond Disc Phonograph model C 19 "Chippendale" was the flagship of the company line of models, and was produced around June, 1919. I notice that the paperboard record dividers are missing in at least the top storage compartment, if you plan on restoring your C 19, and wish to replace them, I can help; contact me via PM here, or by email.

There is a vast amount of information here pertaining to the Chippendale. The model designation was changed from "C 250" to "C 19" in April 1919, but other than a few features, the two were -- for all intents and purposes -- identical. The record storage being the most prolific change for instance; the earlier 2-drawer storage system was changed to a vertical divider system.

If you're interested in learning more about the Chippendale C 250/C 19, I've conducted a study, of which a "data base" has been compiled here at the forum, and if you wish, you can participate in it, or merely read through the members posts and learn quite a lot from them. http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... =2&t=16837

Best,
Fran

Thank you for the reply.


Yes, it's missing the top level of record dividers. The bottom ones are there. I've no idea how this happened. At some point, I want to fill the hole in the cabinet. I have too many records to fit into just the bottom level. I'll message you when I have the extra $$ available for this repair.

I posted the info for my C 19 machine onto your database thread. Also, while searching inside the cabinet for labels, I found an "Edison No 17 Cabinet factory" label. Even better, this search found a piece of wood trim that was missing from the top of the cabinet. When it fell off, someone must have put it in there. It's now back in it's proper place.

While cleaning and oiling this machine, I noticed that there are two ball oilers on the left mainspring. One oiler on each side. I don't think that they were mentioned in the service doc available on this message board. I didn't notice them at first. They're only visible when the mainspring has rotated so that they're on top. I put some oil in each one. Are these ball oilers installed on all C-19's? Maybe they're just not mentioned in the service docs. Ball oilers were a common feature on equipment in the 1800's and early 1900's. Any service tech would know that oil should be squirted into them. Now, if you say "ball oiler" people would think that it's a product used to keep a man's testicles from squeaking while he walks

[fran604g]

*EDITED*

I examined several (5 of 11) "250"* mechanisms I have here, that span the entirety of production years, and discovered that the oiler tubes with ball seem to have been added incrementally throughout the first couple of years of manufacturing.

My results are:

#6,947 - None (early 1916)
#33,181 - Innermost spring only (first half of 1917)
#54,408 - Both spring barrels (first half of 1918)

It doesn't surprise me that the manual doesn't mention them, as I've found that at least a few of the various "instructions" for the Diamond Disc Phonographs were simply reissued year after year, without being updated.

As for your records, it wouldn't surprise me that at some point someone tried to play them using either a "78" adapter with a steel (or otherwise) needle, or on a different manufacturer's machine not equipped for Diamond Disc play.

*"Introduced to the general public in late 1915 – possibly in time for the Christmas season – the Chippendale C 250 was incarnated as the “Official Laboratory Model”. This prestigious designation was bestowed upon the top of the line Diamond Disc Phonographs, and denoted a character of quality and significance. This meant the machine would possess a powerful 2-mainspring motor, the largest available horn (the “250”), gold plated metal components, and a relatively high price of $250." -- "The Edison Chippendale C 250 and its Successor: The C 19” by Francis W. Pratt.

The 250 mechanism was the hallmark of "The Official Laboratory Model" designated Disc models, of which included the C 250 and later, the C 19, and the William and Mary model.

Best,
Fran