Help with Triumph Horn

[flashpanblue]

I finally got a Triumph #11 cygnet horn to complete my machine. The problem is i can't figure out how to attatch it to the repro crane. My other cygnet horns have a swivel half ball crimped into the top of the bell with a loop attatched so you can hook up the support spring. This horn has a swivel half ball with a two inch threaded rod soldered into it. The rod has an adjustable round knurled nut in the middle and is capped with a small nickel ball. It all looks original and untouched and has the proper patina. There is no where to attatch the support spring?? Any thoughts? Was there an earlier version of this attatchment? If all ealse fails I will cut off the rod with my dremel and drill out a hole for the spring.
Pete

[Edisone]

Earlier horns, as yours and my Fireside #10, have that solid bolt which depends on the flex of the crane & its upper mount, to provide motion. Your crane isn't meant for that horn, basically. I don't know how to adapt the two ....

[Valecnik]

Pete,

I would urge you not to cut off the rod. That configuration is correct for the earliest cygnets as Edisone points out and they are quite rare.

The problem is probably with your repro crane. On the repros I've seen, the top half of the rod has a hole that you are supposed to slide that threaded rod through. This works with the repro suspension rod provided and on some of the later original rods because you can screw that top ball off and slide it through. The original cranes though had a slot that you slid the rod into. It will fit perfectly and won't fall out because after you slide it in and drop it down, it's a little thicker at the top so it can't.

I would suggest getting a machinist to adapt the top half of your repro crane, since it's not correct anyway. Another problem you might have it that the crane itself needs to be correct, (have the correct bend) depending on whether you have the top or side mount carriage. Make sure you've got the right crane before wasting any time/money adapting or it still won't work properly. That's why you see lots of cygnets on eBAY hanging cockeyed. They've not got the right crane setup.

They say a picture is worth 1000 words so here's 2,000 words worth. Pictured below are a repro and original crane for a top mount carriage on a Triumph.

I hope this helps.

[flashpanblue]

Thanks Valenik for all the info and pictures. I have a model A triumph with a horizontal carrage. Does this mean that the early support did not use a spring??
Pete

[Valecnik]

Thanks Valenik for all the info and pictures. I have a model A triumph with a horizontal carrage. Does this mean that the early support did not use a spring??
Pete

Pete, That's correct. The first cygnet horns were suspended directly by that threaded rod to the top of the crane. I'm not 100% sure but I think that early suspension system might not work with the crane that's required to go with the horizontal carriage.

The earliest cranes, starting above the horn elbow, roughy followed the contour of the horn to the point above the horn where you would connect the rod. They also went further forward of the mandrel above the point where the front carriage would hold the smaller reproducer.

There's a second style, similar to the first but with the last inch or so almost vertical to accomodate the rod and spring system

Then there's at least one more (third) style, for use with the horizontal carriage, with the last couple inches of the crane bending almost vertical. There's more variation by machine but I think the top half of the crane anyway is limited to these three variants. Someone please comment if you can elaborate. I may not be 100% correct.

The style you see pictured below is that third style on a Triumph Model E. This is most probably the type of crane that would have been outfitted to your model A when the large carriage was installed. By the time the large carriage was offered, cygnets would have been offered with the later system including the spring suspension. Will this style work in your case if you can open up the top of the crane, like an original? I'm not sure.

I don't know how they would have dealt with someone who early on upgraded an A model Triumph, (for example) converting it to 2/4 minute and adding an early configuration cygnet, (with suspension rod)and then later upgraded to the large carriage. I suppose they might have removed the rod and replaced it with the ball & spring suspension but that's very difficult to do without damaging, bending up the horn. Perhaps the tall bottom half of the later Triumph crane would fit properly with the earliest type top half.

Perhaps someone who reads this will fill in what I've missed and correct what I've misstated. I wish someone would write a book with lots of good pictures illustrating the variations in horn cranes, and what's correct with which machine. There's a topic for George if he reads this!

[phonogfp]

I wish someone would write a book with lots of good pictures illustrating the variations in horn cranes, and what's correct with which machine. There's a topic for George if he reads this!

You just gave away my upcoming article in the September issue of The Sound Box - - except I didn't cover cygnet cranes in this first installment.

George P.

[Valecnik]

George,

I look forward to that article and the next one which covers cygnets!

Several years ago I bought the E model Triumph you see in the picture at Union, no horn or crane. A couple hours later I saw Randy Donley beside a pile of horns they'd brought in the back. Most looked like junk but amazingly I pulled out an 11 panel cygnet in great condition for $250 I think.

Now comes the hard part. I think I bought 4 cranes & some half cranes over a couple year period before I got the right combination for the Triumph. I think the bottom half is a reproduction even now but I'm not sure.

Lastly, why does not someone make anatomically correct cranes, I mean with the proper slot to suspend the rod from instead of that incorrect hole? It does not seem so complicated...

[Andersun]

Here is the adapter you need for the earlier style cygnet horn.....

[Lenoirstreetguy]

I was reading the reprint of the Edison Phonograph Monthly about this era when they changed to a spring mount and a rubber connector. They had to caution the dealers NOT to return the rubber connectors to their jobber and demand the metal unit. They had many dealers complaining that their jobber was trying to fob off the " old style" rubber connector on the unsuspecting dealer.
I've only seen one machine set up with a bolt suspended cygnet horn and a metal connector. It was a Fireside that belonged to my great-great aunt ( my great-grandfather's sister) who had bought the machine new. She was one of those loyal Edisonites who bought cylinders up the bitter end. ( The Edison company's , not hers )

Jim