Question for Those Who Have Been In The Hobby 20+ Years...

[AmberolaAndy]

As someone who's part of the first generation to grow up with the internet, it can be hard to comprehend a time when information on our hobby was more difficult to come by. Where it could be getting parts for our machines, The correct records to play on our machines, or just finding out the correct date of manufacture. This was not the case in 1958.

In this article this early collector claims his Edison Standard model A to be manufactured in 1882, and his Standard Talking Machine model A to be manufactured in 1888 when these two machines were probably a good two decades newer than that.

I'm sure some members here who started before the internet and detailed reference books did this sort of "guesstimating" on the manufacture of their machines.

So what year did you originally think your machines were made? Did you assume a patent date on the machine was a date of manufacture? When did you discover your machines true date of manufacture? And were you far off from your hypothesis?

(Really specific question I know.)

[Jerry B.]

I am sixty seven and consider myself a second generation collector. I started collecting about 1973. I'd say collecting before the internet was a regional hobby. There was a good group of collectors in the Pacific Northwest. We would have a meeting at someone's home a few times every year. There were several collectors that I considered my friend and mentor such as John Davis, Bud Cannon, Wayne Yoder, and Ira Dueltgen. I listened to those guys. Victor made the best disc machine. Edison made the best cylinder machine. For the most part Columbia, both cylinder and disc, should be avoided. A Victrola was good for donating parts for a Victor horn machine. A suitcase portable was not worth any effort. The only real literature was The Fabulous Phpnograph and Tinfoil to Stereo. Those two book were phono gospel. I was so thankful and happy when Ira sold me a spare copy of Tinfoil to Stereo. I read and reread that book several times. To this day I don't understand why the first Victrola, the VV-VI, is worth so little. Yes there were errors is those books, many errors. In addition to mistakes there was underlying bias in favor of Victor and Edison and definite bias in anything Columbia or Zonophone.

So how come I turned out so good?

Well, I was on a budget. Victrola and Columbias were cheap. I could afford Columbias with their fancy cabinets. And I bought unique uprights that I considered lovely pieces of furniture. I couldn't help but be influenced by my mentors but was also able to appreciate other forms of talking machines.

A source for parts was very difficult for early collectors. Carl Frick was an early supplier. Ira talked about ordering a replacement Victor elbow made by Frick. He said it was made out of pieces of plumbing. We were really excited when the replacement aluminum elbows were offered. A machine wthl an abundance of Frick parts was called a "Frick-O-Phone." That's why I am so thankful for Ron Sitko and Musical Americana. How many of us remember the early banner decals? You could spot one from across the room. Thank you Gregg Cline. Modern collectors are fortunate.

The Michigan Antique Phonograph Society (MAPS) and its publication In the Groove made the hobby more national. I think every collector went immediately to the classified section to see what was being offered for sale. There were serious complaints that some regions received their newsletter before others. There were other mailings such as Jerry's Musical News by Jerry Madsen, a buy/sell mailing by Allen K. and others.

I guess I never really considered the manufacture date of my machines. I remember the century celebration of the first tinfoil machine. The tinfoil machine was a true antique and it seemed to legitimize the hobby of collecting talking machines. At the time I knew it would be a long time before any of my machines would be considered "antiques."

It's late. Enough rambling. Maybe more tomorrow. Any questions for an old collector. Ask George.

Jerry Blais

[Menophanes]

I bought an Edison Standard A (for GBP5.00) in about 1963. I think I was always aware that it belonged to the twentieth rather than the nineteenth century, but I can no longer remember how I knew. Within a year or so I joined the City of London Phonograph & Gramophone Society, whose former magazine The Hillandale News would have been my first authoritative source of information. A few years later I had an exhibition catalogue issued by the Society, possibly for their fiftieth anniversary in 1969, which was full of valuable data and illustrations. The first version of George Frow's book (then called, I think, A Guide to the Edison Cylinder Phonograph) was available early in the following decade; this enabled me to date my machine with some precision, since it combined a push-pull pin for raising the carrier-arm instead of the old lifting lever (introduced in the spring of 1903) with a licence-plate of the Edison-Bell Consolidated Phonograph Company whose franchise was withdrawn at almost exactly the same time. (Actually Frow alleged that these plates were never found on phonographs with the lifting pin, so that my machine could have resulted in a correction to the published data if I had not been too young and timid to bring up the point.)

Another valuable source was a little book by V. K. Chew, published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office and covering both cylinder and disc machines. I have long forgotten the title. Despite its brevity it contained information I have never seen elsewhere, such as examples of early Disc Graphophone cabinets showing the different types of moulding applied to the bases.

Andy has mentioned the temptation to date Edison machines by the patent lists. Ernie Bayly's catalogue of the E.M.I. collection of machines (circa 1975) contains many examples of this fallacy.

Information on disc machines was harder to find. I know it took me a long time to accept that my first gramophone (H.M.V. model 103) could not be as early as 1910. Similarly, I believed for years that the manufacture of single-sided records must have ceased as soon as double-siding came into use, so that the former could not be later than 1908.

Oliver Mundy.

[epigramophone]

I am 72 and was given my first machine, a Micro-Perophone Grippa portable, with some records in about 1957. It was still possible to buy new 78rpm records in the shops, but on my pocket money junk shops and jumble sales were my main hunting grounds for both records and machines.

Once the wider family learned of my interest, more machines and records were given to me, including an HMV251 horizontal grand. A favourite aunt left me her Columbia 204 portable which had been her 21st birthday present in 1934. This is one of my most cherished machines and will never leave the family.

A jumble sale yielded an HMV130 table grand for 10 shillings (50P to the decimal generation) and for £5 I bought an unused HMV102D portable from an Army Surplus shop.

Elderly people were often glad to give their old machines and records to interested youngsters rather than see them scrapped. From the ancient housekeeper of a Catholic priest, who had recently died leaving her his entire estate, I acquired many good records including an autographed McCormack which I treasure.

I have all the books mentioned by Oliver, but the first British book aimed specifically at the collector was "Collecting Phonographs and Gramophones" by Christopher Proudfoot. For many years this book was the only work of it's kind, and I still refer to it regularly.

My membership of the CLPGS, the APS and of this Forum are now my main sources of information, and have brought me many friends from all over the UK and beyond.
Having passed my Diamond Jubilee as a collector, I am still learning and hopefully passing on my knowledge to others.

Roger Mackey.

[phonogfp]

It's late. Enough rambling. Maybe more tomorrow. Any questions for an old collector. Ask George.

My experiences are quite similar to those of Jerry, Oliver and Roger. I'm 65 now, and began collecting in 1967 at the age of 13. Like any other 13 year-old, I didn't know much about the ways of the world, so when an antique shop owner told me that the Dictaphone I was examining was made in 1886, I believed him. ...And sure enough, there was a decal on the back with patent dates beginning in 1886...and going up to 1936! I was so green that I wondered if those later dates might possibly be projected to occur (after all, I really wanted that Dictaphone to be from 1886)! But even a wet-behind-the-ears 13 year old can think critically (if prompted), and I realized there was no way anyone could know when certain patents would be granted in the future - - and certainly not decades out.

Looking at data plates on Edison Phonographs and paper labels on Victrolas showed lists of patent dates; usually 1 to 3 years apart. That gave me a clue as to dating, so that at age 15 when I typed up little "informative" file cards for my little collection, I dated an Edison Standard Model B at "1903-1905." It was a banner case Model B dating from October 1905-July 1906 so I wasn't far off.

Like Jerry, the only sources of information I had were The Fabulous Phonograph (acquired in 1973) and From Tinfoil to Stereo (thankfully reprinted in 1976 because First Editions were impossible to find). I'm lucky Gelatt's book came to me first, so I was not misled by Read & Welch's assertion that the V-V IV was the first Victrola!

Like Oliver, I obtained V.K. Chew's excellent little book, Talking Machines, and George Frow's slim blue softcover, A Guide to the Edison Cylinder Phonograph, but I didn't have these until 1973. The years 1967-1973 were full of guesswork for me. I'm thankful that I didn't have Facebook and all its "experts" to mislead me! I would just have to wait for reliable information, and be cognizant of not knowing certain things until then. I collected for 15 years before I wrote my first article. As Roger says, the learning never stops.

Primary sources of information are much, much easier to come by now. There are machine catalogs from many companies posted online, The Phonoscope, The Talking Machine World, The Phonogram, and many other helpful sources to aid the historian/collector in understanding his/her machines. What a great time to be alive!

George P.

[zenith82]

I got into the hobby in the pre-internet '90s, so I haven't been around as long as a lot of these guys. There were several books out by then, but being on a very tight budget, I couldn't afford any of them.

As far as dates of manufacture, I was able to make educated guesses. I knew that external horn disc machines began falling out of favor by the early 1910s and that at the time, there wasn't a lot of interest in internal horn machines unless they were something special like a VV-XVIII. In general, the external horn disc machines had the most collecting interest then, followed by cylinder machines. Internal horn machines were a very distant third. So naturally, I was drawn to the internal horn machines because I could get them for next to nothing.

One thing I began to notice back then was brand distribution. I would usually find machines like Silvertones or Cecilians in rural areas, which made sense considering both were mail order products. Columbias would turn up in both rural and urban settings, as would machines like Brunswicks and Victors, though the last two were more commonly found in larger towns and cities.

I believe my early collecting experiences is why I have a soft spot for Silvertone machines today.

Back to that article, it's hard to say what inspired those ridiculous dates. It could have been a collector who made a lot of assumptions, or it could have even been the journalist who wrote the article coming up with random dates to get a reader's attention in a time when it was hard to verify anything. Who knows.

[edisonplayer]

I started collecting in 1975.I remember it all started when my 6th grade music teacher Arthur Pare brought in a model B Edison Home with a Cygnet horn.Another teacher had a Fireside,also with a Cygnet.I asked Arthur about different things with phonographs,such as "Did Victor make cylinder records?"He was very knowledgeable and we became good friends.

[edisonclassm]

I guess I will jump in here and add a little more insight as to the early days of collecting. I am now 66 and became interested in the antique radios when I was 11yrs. old after visiting my Uncle's radio station out in Sioux Falls, S.D. He used an antique Atwater Kent radio as a monitor in the reception area of the broadcast studio and when I saw it, I was fascinated by it. When I got home from that trip I proceeded to hunt down old radios as I had a paper route in the oldest part of my town and would ask the customers, when I collected for the route, If they had any old radios they wanted to get rid of. Needless to say I was overwhelmed by the number of radios I was able to haul away! I encountered my first phonograph when I asked one of my paper route customers if she had any old radios they wanted to get rid of? Her response was that she didn't have any old radios but she had a Victrola she would give me. I had no idea what she was talking about but agreed to proceed to the loft of the barn behind the house to view my first phonograph which was a Victrola 11a. Her teenage kids had beaten the tar out of it when they would party with friends. Covered in Barn dust, bird crap, and having had the leg nearly shot off my Dad and I hauled it home in the '62 Olds F-85 station wagon. We tried sneaking in the back door to take it down to the basement when we encountered my Mother who was getting a little fed up with my new found interest in hauling home old junk. She looked at this wreck of a Victrola as we were hauling it to the basement and stated: Two weeks! Two weeks! then into the garbage it goes! My Dad and I were determined we were going to save this old relic so we started working on it to get it back into shape. For the next two weeks he worked on the cabinet and I worked on the mechanics and refinishing. It had a broken spring so I proceeded, without ever having done such a thing, to repair the mainspring. Luckily it was an easy repair. After the two weeks were up and we had it playing and looking like new we decided for fun to haul it out to the curb and in that process was halted by my mother who protested that we should not get rid of it since now it was looking so good! From that first one I was hooked. I started to investigate local antique stores and found one that was a treasure trove of old phonographs. Joanne's Curiosity Shoppe was the name of it. I was greeted by her husband Ted Kay who was more than glad to show me rows of upright wind up phonographs. All were priced at $2 each. Take your pick! The one that fascinated me the most was an Edison banner front Standard model-B with a silver flowered morning glory horn. After some negotiating I hauled it home along with a hundred cylinders. He had hundreds more cylinders that could be had for a mere 25cents each. Sounds reasonable by todays standards but in 1964 money was worth more and it took less of it to buy something. Jerry is right about the old days of collecting being local. I put a wanted ad in the Buffalo Evening News to find more stuff and met my first fellow collector. His name was John Perschbacher who was the son of an Episcopal Minister from a small town 20 miles away. John was several years older and had been collecting years prior to me meeting him. His parents had been antique dealers in the past so he was more familiar with the realm of antiques. John was also a collector of early pocket watches and had taken courses in watchmaking so he was proficient at repairing and restoring old phonographs so he became a mentor to me when it came to helping me repair some of the phonographs I would acquire. Being savvy in the realm of antiques he introduced me to the hobby outside of the local area. Many years before the internet was even thought of, we had to rely on national publications like The Collector's News and The Antique Trader. Things were definitely much slower then and I would wait anxiously for the arrival of these publications in the mail to see what was to be had! Another publication I subscribed to was Hobbies magazine. I responded to many of the ads of the old timers such as A.Nugent Jr. from Virginia. He was a hoot! In every newsletter you got from him he was either dying or going out of business or both! Others were Tom Pollard and Karl Frick as well as Neumann Miller out on the west coast. These early publications put me in touch with Allan Koenigsberg and Coppernoll's antiques in Palatine Bridge, NY. The second collector I met was Peter Dilg probably around 1965 or 1966. He still has a letter I wrote to him around that time.(I need to get a copy) The third collector I met was John Maeder whose mother was setting up and selling stuff at a local flea market. John and I became good friends and would hound around the local antique stores looking for goodies to buy. Hey John, remember Pat Cutini and Carrie Rapp? The next big event outside of the local area was when I attended my first Union meet in 1977. I've been involved in the hobby for 55 years and have seen a lot of change. The internet has really changed things a lot. Before the internet we used to really anticipate attending the shows to find things Now with the internet the shows have been diminished in their importance and attendance is down. I hope that will change

[AmberolaAndy]

Now with the internet the shows have been diminished in their importance and attendance is down. I hope that will change

One thing that the internet has done Is made machines less "rare" and lowered the prices for people like me who are more interested in the history of the machines and music than the rarity or monetary value of the items. I love when i can find out a manufacture date on my machines because it also prompts me to do research on what was going on in the world when the machine was manufactured or what the original owner's lifestyle must have been like at that time.

[zenith82]

Now with the internet the shows have been diminished in their importance and attendance is down. I hope that will change

One thing that the internet has done Is made machines less "rare" and lowered the prices for people like me who are more interested in the history of the machines and music than the rarity or monetary value of the items. I love when i can find out a manufacture date on my machines because it also prompts me to do research on what was going on in the world when the machine was manufactured or what the original owner's lifestyle must have been like at that time.

I miss going to shows. Whether it be phonographs, radios, coin-op, you name it, the experience is one that cannot be re-created by any other means. Unfortunately, one major reason that show attendance is down is many of us who aren't retired no longer have the available time to attend them. Many are stuck working 12+ hour days and are also, thanks to the information age, expected to be available after hours if the need arises. The Blackberry is the worst invention of modern times and has led to a "need" for instant gratification among senior management types. The last show I attended was an antique radio show around 2002-03. I expect this will be the case until I retire, which isn't for another 16 years at the earliest if the job doesn't kill me before then. I'd say there are a lot of collectors out there in the 30-55 age bracket who would love to attend shows, but are unable to due to work and family commitments.