Two new Diaphragms with great sound.

[larryh]

I have been lucky enough to be asked to give my thoughts on two new diaphragms. Both show great improvements in tone and volume over my True Tone. My goal all along probably 12 years ago by now was to encourage others to try and reach for the best sound. When I started there was little that actually represented a Edison record well and balanced with out distortions. They were probably fine for the time but as these new versions show everything moves an the goal post moved when we decided to try and present a better "mouse trap" as the saying used to go. It took me a lot of tries of all kinds of materials before I stumbled onto the True Tone design.. I also had the best luck with a particular material which seemingly is no longer around. In the mean time a number of people all worked at trying ways to providing great sound. Among them Wyatt, Nick, Jeff, John, and no doubt lots of others. Getting all the kinks out is always a problem and somethings could do very well but still suffer from some slight relationship of pieces to prevent them from total clarity. I am pleased that some of those people ask for my thoughts on their designs. Mike has worked for years now to accomplish his sound. For quite a while we knew it had a good tonal balance but the problem remained that it wasn't able to push the sound outward from the machine in a way that makes the sound exciting. With this last of his versions he has come to that point and I am happy for him. Herman is new to me but no doubt has been thinking about how to go about decent sound for a while as well. He recently had a thread on the main page with short interludes from his various styles of diaphragms. He wanted some comments as to the sound. Since personally I found it very difficult to judge by those I ask him if he would like to send them to me and I would try to give him an opinion hearing them live. The best one most likely is the one with the cork material similar to Edison's design. I made a video of each of their best diaphragms and would like to share them here fo your thoughts. For my self I am glad that sound progresses as it will give everyone greater pleasure from their records and machines. After all to me a fine machine is only as beautiful as its sound.

The recording was made using a Standard Reproducer. I got to listen to Mikes using my Edisonic Version but I found that the stylus was leaving slight change in grooves. The sound if a large basement was quite striking on the Chippendale.


Hermans version of "Tired of Me"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsOp0zHj63o


Mike or Phonoboys version of "Tired of me"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC_CUB-1iwM


Thanks for a lot of your encouragements to every one.

Larry

[marcapra]

Have you listened to Wyatt Markus' new diaphragm yet, made of a dollar bill? Also is Edison's original diaphragm made with layers of shellac paper reinforced with cork a poor design? I have several Edison diaphragms taken out of old reproducers and they look fine. Do they go bad from just age? Or can they be re-used? Is it a good idea to buy one of the new diaphragms made of rice paper and cork like Edison's original?

[wjw]

Have you listened to Wyatt Markus' new diaphragm yet, made of a dollar bill? Also is Edison's original diaphragm made with layers of shellac paper reinforced with cork a poor design? I have several Edison diaphragms taken out of old reproducers and they look fine. Do they go bad from just age? Or can they be re-used? Is it a good idea to buy one of the new diaphragms made of rice paper and cork like Edison's original?

I have heard that the originals were a bit convex when new and have flattened over time. If so, im sure they could be restored. I prefer Larry's Truetone diaphragm to my original examples as it has a clearer sound and is not affected by humidity.

- bill

[larryh]

Thanks for your appreciation of the sound of the True Tone. While I am trying to encourage people who are showing great promise often different people hear things differently. Another issue is that many collectors are mostly interested in collectable popular groups. While I love to hear those usually I can't afford them. However its not a problem as I enjoy almost any type of music. Often something that handles say that pop piece may struggle with a well recorded Symphony type selection. Edison became quite good at Acoustic recording that pushes those limits. Then there is the problem that many people consider loud as the way to judge music sound. And I agree to hear a record pushing out a good volume is impressive. Thus to some the True Tone design while good didn't quite push the sound as loudly as they would like. I tired a lot of ways to increase it and to some degree I had success, mostly using the material I mentioned in the OP that no longer seems to be available. The previous material which is almost exactly the same idea is also good at portraying overall decent sound, but not quite as loud. I am doing some experiments to see if I can still accomplish that but nothing is for sure on that question yet.

So far as original diaphragms, I never personally owned one that could play well, or cleanly with out distortions. Steven M whom has used some of mine for quite a while says that the True Tone surpasses the original in the Standard Head. In the Edisonic Head it does also play louder but evidently not to the levels of a original at the time they were new. Its interesting that both the new diaphragms above are following closely the original design. That is very tricky because it seems the slightest difference can effect aspects of the sound. Each may take a little more tinkering to arrive at perfection but I have a feeling they are close to that.

[CarlosV]

Have you listened to Wyatt Markus' new diaphragm yet, made of a dollar bill? Also is Edison's original diaphragm made with layers of shellac paper reinforced with cork a poor design? I have several Edison diaphragms taken out of old reproducers and they look fine. Do they go bad from just age? Or can they be re-used? Is it a good idea to buy one of the new diaphragms made of rice paper and cork like Edison's original?

Marc, I have the Wyatt and the True Tone diaphragms you mention, and while both outperfom the original Edison design, the True Tone is the best performer. I compared them with about half a dozen original Edison diaphragms, including one for the Opera phonograph, also outperformed by a great length by the True Tone. I also achieved further improvement in the sound reproduction when I utilized the Gilmore diamond stylus, as I posted in another thread. Evidently I never listened to a Edison diaphragm and stylus when new, as it would be impossible, but in comparison with what is achieved with these modern designs I can only conclude that either the original design is flawed or it deteriorated over the decades.

[AmberolaAndy]

I can’t wait to get a True Tone diaphragm for my Diamond B! But how does one obtain this new stylus? I have a DD reproducer that I’m refurbishing with new gaskets and a True Tone diaphragm but the only setback is that it needs a stylus.

[larryh]

Contact Steven at.

[email protected]

He has the new Gilmore/Bruce Stylus

You can P.M. me here, I think I am supposed to be making one of the cylinder ones for you.


Larry

[AmberolaAndy]

Contact Steven at.

[email protected]

He has the new Gilmore/Bruce Stylus

You can P.M. me here, I think I am supposed to be making one of the cylinder ones for you.


Larry

Ok gotcha!

[Valecnik]

Thanks for the comparisons Larry. You are doing it the right way, same machine, same record, one right after another.

The only thing I would add is that you should compare also an Electric and an early frosty label. My guess would be that Herman's would sound better with the frosty label. I think Mike's sounds a bit better with the mid 20s acoustic and I'm pretty sure Mike's would be the better of the two on an electric dance number.

Also, by far the best way to judge would be in the room. A lot of filtering is done by the video and the various speaker setups that those commenting here listens on, not to mention that some have better ears than others!

[larryh]

Valecnik:

You are bringing up some good points. Rooms vary a lot. Something that sounds quite loud in my living room where the videos for the most part have been created won't have the same effect in a large area where the sound isn't able to be enhanced as much. I have strove to have a very fine camera and microphone so that it comes closer to the actual experience. Of course you can't control the volume level so easily either. A somewhat quiet record can be turned up to suit the listener. However if the basic sound is good it does give a hint as to how the music would sound in the home.

Its interesting the variety of people have said on an off the board. Some favor one for certain reasons while others will choose differently. This quest for a suitable diaphragm for the Edisonic has peaked my curiosity as to wether I might find a way to make the material used in the True Tones to produce satisfactory results in it. By making major change in the structure of the design it might be possible and a couple of experimental versions have proven that it most likely is possible.

I encourage anyone with the slightest interest in producing a new idea to please do so. The collectors will be most happy to hear it.

Larry