Metal Horn To Fit A 10-50? Any Such Animal?

[gramophone-georg]

Maybe I am just nuts. If you told me so, I really couldn't argue.

So. I bought one of Wayne's (Victrola-Monkey) 10-50- into- a-9-55- cabinet Frankensteins. I can't thank V-M enough- it's just great. In fact, it's now my daily- driver go- to machine.

But here's my question: Since it's basically an "outlaw" anyways... I keep reading from folks here who seem to know what they are talking about that the metal- horned big Orthophonic machines are far superior to the wooden horned ones.

The only other big Ortho machine I've had was a Credenza... and it seems that the sound on it was slightly superior to this 10-50- seemed to have a bit more bass and overall better clarity. Maybe it's because I am running a soundbox from a portable now while I wait for Shenandoah Restorations to refit the original box with new front and rear castings. The portable SB was rebuilt by Wyatt for its previous owner, so there likely aren't any issues there aside from being the wrong box for this application- and this was an improvement over the original. The original was just suffering from the usual pot metal issues.

So, my question is- should I

1. Replace the horn with a metal one that's as close to bolt- in as possible (assuming someone has one they're willing to part with)

2. Carefully remove the horn in it, disassemble it, and line it with sheet metal (likely over felt so it doesn't vibrate)

OR

3. Forget the whole idea and leave it alone

I really don't mind "improving" it as it'll never be an original machine anyways.

Thoughts? Reasons? Thanks!

[wjw]

I think the 10-50 horn should make audible lower frequencies than a credenza's. Given a decent soundbox, look for a loose (leaky) connection to the tone arm, sloppy crook connection (grease this) and so on down to the horn connection. Leaks closest to the SB's diaphragm are the ones with the worse effect.
I have an 8-35 with metal horn. I like the brighter reproduction compared to the credenza but I think it has less bass effect, not sure.
If you can remove the 10-50 horn you should be able to swab a lot of thinned polyurethane into it. You can change its position to get the poly into the heart of the horn. When dried it might approximate the qualities of a metal horn.
-bill

[Victrola-Monkey]

I would first suggest to simply test the sound difference of your Credenza soundbox to be temporarily installed in your VE 9-55 cabinet that contains the internals of the VE 10-50. If it sounds better, then you know a rebuilt sound box will improve the sound of your VE 9-55/VE 10-50 combo machine.

Though I think it might be possible to put a Orthophonic metal horn in the VE 9-55 cabinet, there would be serious connection problems that even if they could be overcomed, I believe the sound would be degraded. The VE 10-50 horn has a very large funnel shaped pipe that exits to the side while the Orthophonic metal horn’s built-in pipe and very small opening flange exits the top. A narrow connector pipe would need to mount to that small opening on the top of the metal horn up-over-down-and back up to mount to the bottom of the changer. Alternatively, the metal horn could be installed upside down to make the connectorization have a shorter path with less turns, but still I believe the sound would be severely degraded as well as the internal appearance. Currently you VE 9-55 combo machine looks like it came from the factory that way, as it has the same internal appearance as a VE 10-50.

Though your idea would be an interesting project to see the outcome of, I would rather suggest simply getting a complete VE 8-35, VE 8-9, or even a VE 10-35, and if you need the space, sell the Credenza.

PM sent.

For those unfamiliar with the combo machine George is referring to, click on the link:

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... =2&t=38618

[gramophone-georg]

I would first suggest to simply test the sound difference of your Credenza soundbox to be temporarily installed in your VE 9-55 cabinet that contains the internals of the VE 10-50. If it sounds better, then you know a rebuilt sound box will improve the sound of your VE 9-55/VE 10-50 combo machine.

Though I think it might be possible to put a Orthophonic metal horn in the VE 9-55 cabinet, there would be serious connection problems that even if they could be overcomed, I believe the sound would be degraded. The VE 10-50 horn has a very large funnel shaped pipe that exits to the side while the Orthophonic metal horn’s built-in pipe and very small opening flange exits the top. A narrow connector pipe would need to mount to that small opening on the top of the metal horn up-over-down-and back up to mount to the bottom of the changer. Alternatively, the metal horn could be installed upside down to make the connectorization have a shorter path with less turns, but still I believe the sound would be severely degraded as well as the internal appearance. Currently you VE 9-55 combo machine looks like it came from the factory that way, as it has the same internal appearance as a VE 10-50.

Though your idea would be an interesting project to see the outcome of, I would rather suggest simply getting a complete VE 8-35, VE 8-9, or even a VE 10-35, and if you need the space, sell the Credenza.

PM sent.

For those unfamiliar with the combo machine George is referring to, click on the link:

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... =2&t=38618

Hi Wayne- actually, I sold the Credenza to make room for this one, so that ship has sailed. I was talking to another phono nerd last night and he suggested sealing the box to the arm first with Vaseline. This reminded me that on the Credenza I had a rubber O ring that fit the arm tightly that I had the soundbox snugged against, since it seems the correct flange gasket with the additional outer rubber beveled extension is NLA everyplace. I need to do that here.

If I were to go metal horn, I would fabricate a junction like I already have on the hybrid. I am a pretty decent metal fabricator. I agree about the excellent fit of what's there, though. It's so good that an unscrupulous collector could pass it off as a rare special order model- only us nerds know who actually did it! If one didn't KNOW one couldn't tell! I always wanted a 'real' 10-50 but now you couldn't give me one!

[OrthoSean]

If it hasn't already been done, make sure you grease all of the tonearm joints, including underneath where it lifts and pivots, there's a major air leak there. When I did my 10-50 I made sure anything that could leak got sealed with grease and the horn joints all got sealed with clear silicone. I went even one step further and cut custom rubber washers for all of the metal horn joints. I think there are two or three, you can take them apart / off, cut the washers from flat rubber, give them a little dab of plumber's grease for good measure then reassemble. My machine more than doubled in volume. It took a few hours and an extra set of hands to do it all, but the results are well worth it. My 10-50 easily exceeds my Credenza in bass response and I'd say has slightly more range. It's been a good 15 years since I did this, so I may have left something out, but start with the tonearm joints / base. Teflon plumber's tape to seal the reproducer fitting will also help at the point.

Sean

[Victrola-Monkey]

The tone arm was fully greased, both at the crook and at its base. The soundbox was not rebuilt, nor was it advertised as such.

[gramophone-georg]

The tone arm was fully greased, both at the crook and at its base. The soundbox was not rebuilt, nor was it advertised as such.

Correct on the sound box. The diaphragm was very nice, though, along with the spider, needle bar, etc. It should be really very nice and ready to go when I get it back with its new front and rear casting, so this worked out just perfect as far as I am concerned.

Figured you had greased and sealed everything so no worries there. I'm thinking it's likely a leak at the soundbox/ arm junction which I will address tonight.

[gramophone-georg]

And... I did the trick with the tight fitting O ring against the sounbox flange on the arm... that did it! Bass response is great, clarity is back, and it likely gained at least 10% in volume- it's quite noticeably louder, which I really didn't expect.

Amazing how such a small detail can make such a difference.

[OrthoSean]

Amazing what just one little air leak being fixed can do, isn't it?

Sean