What are pros & cons of a single spring/double spring motor?

[drh]

I am new to mechanical music machines and doing the research before buying a gramophone.
What are pros and cons of a single spring vs double spring motor? I've read that there has been also a triple spring....

Yes, Edison marketed a couple of Phonographs in the 1896-1911 period which were equipped with a triple-mainspring motor known as the "Triton." Columbia marketed several machines (cylinder and disc) with 4-mainspring motors, and many of the larger post-1917 Victrolas are equipped with 4-mainspring motors.

How does the number of springs affect on:
Length of play?

Typically, the more mainsprings in a motor, the longer it will play on a single winding. Columbia marketed a very popular Graphophone from 1897-1907 (The Type B, or "Eagle) with two mainsprings, but they were so small that some machines with a single, larger mainspring could play longer on a single winding.

Reliability?

Having multiple mainsprings means that each mainspring is sharing the work with the other mainspring(s), but the disadvantage of this is that if one mainspring breaks, the motor will not function.

Collectors value?

Multiple-mainspring motors are usually found in upper-end machines, so the collector value may be higher, but not so much because of the mainsprings. Many earlier machines with single mainsprings are worth far more than nicely-playing multi-mainspring Victrolas of 20 years later. Don't buy a machine based on the number of mainsprings. Also, decide if you want a machine to use as a daily player, or a rare specimen. Many of us have scarce talking machines worth many thousands of dollars that don't play well - - and never did. Meanwhile, a common Victrola worth perhaps $150-$200 will play nicely and provide utility that the "shelf queens" cannot.

Length of life?

Mainsprings can and do break. Metal fatigue affects these parts over time. Luckily, new mainsprings are readily available at reasonable prices, and the parts suppliers will even install them in your spring barrels if you wish.

Any other aspects that I should know of?

I wouldn't recommend a prospective collector to go out and buy a rare machine. First, decide what you like: musically and visually; and set a budget for your first purchase.

For cylinder machines, start with a common model such as an Edison Standard Model D (it plays both 2-minute and 4-minute cylinder records with the proper reproducers). If you don't care about the external horn of the Standard, and prefer fox-trots to earlier popular music, get an Edison Amberola 30.

For disc machines, common models are the Victrolas VI, IX, XI, XIV, and XVI (I left out the IV because it has a smallish single mainspring and you'll spend a lot of time winding it if you enjoy playing records). These are in ascending order of original price and features. They all play 78 rpm records, which are in plentiful supply and are often given away free by collectors.

These are just my suggestions, and others will have their own perspectives. In short, start simple and buy only what you like. Don't be in a hurry, and hopefully get some exposure to some different machines before taking the plunge.

Good luck!

George P.

Thank you George for good points. I do know exactly what I want, although I'm not set on a particular model. I want a Victrola because they were made in NJ and I live in NJ. Also Victrolas are popular, so I shouldn't have problems with parts in case if I need any. I'd want external horn for the classic look, but from what I can see the price jumps considerably for external horn (I assume that's not only because of aesthetics, but because those were earlier models), so I'll likely have to settle for an internal horn. I'd want a tabletop model because the cabinet only distracts attention from the machine (that's my personal perception). I'd go for an earlier model, but I want it to have a good sound quality... I have to stop here because I haven't heard any machines in person so far. I'd want to see and hear few machines before I can make an educated decision.

All things being equal, an external horn will probably sound better than an internal. Note that a "Victrola" always has an internal horn; Victor's external horn machines were called "Victor [identifier]" where the identifier could be a Roman numeral (I through VI), a letter (A, B, C, D), or a model name like "Monarch" or "Royal."

If I may add a bit about springs, there are single spring machines, and then there are single spring machines. I have a European external horn machine that came with a small single-spring motor that was too weak to play a 12" record on a winding. My Pathé Diffusor (the machine in my "avatar" photo) has the same issue to a somewhat lesser degree; it's marginal. The single-spring motors in the lower-line Edison diamond disc machines (the ones below the "Laboratory Model" level), on the other hand, were big, heavy things with lots of power. And oh, by the way, Edison's company was another good New Jersey concern.

[BillH_NJ]

And Vitaphone was located (for its brief existence) in my current city, Plainfield, NJ. I found one a few years ago, but they don’t have much to recommend them other than the connection to the history of my town. Music boxes were also made in NJ—I have an Olympia, which was based in Jersey City, and Regina was located in Rahway.

Bill

[Victrola-Monkey]

Ymg200,

I too am into Victor Talking Machine Company machines because of a NJ connection, I was born in Camden. That is something I never admitted too until I opened and looked at the inside lid of a Victrola. If you have the chance, you should take a trip down to the Johnson (he was the founder of VTMC) museum in Delaware. They have all the variety of machines there. They have a Old time Victrola store inside their museum and they are happy to play a few machines for you.

[gramophone-georg]

Ymg200,

I too am into Victor Talking Machine Company machines because of a NJ connection, I was born in Camden. That is something I never admitted too until I opened and looked at the inside lid of a Victrola. If you have the chance, you should take a trip down to the Johnson (he was the founder of VTMC) museum in Delaware. They have all the variety of machines there. They have a Old time Victrola store inside their museum and they are happy to play a few machines for you.

Gee, Wayne, I'm really sorry. Even though I hail from Brooklyn, the hospital where I got my first spanking was across the river in Paterson. I lived in Bloomfield briefly, my maternal grandparents were in Clifton, and I spent lots of pleasant summer days at Manasquan in the Sixties. I guess we all have our dirty little secrets.

[marcapra]

Also, if you prefer records made from 1925 and after, in other words, electrically recorded 78s, you should hear a Victrola Orthophonic machine made to play the records from the late 20s and early 30s. There were other makes that made competing models that played electrically recorded records, such as Columbia Viva Tonal, and Brunswick Panatrope machines. You can play electric records on pre-1925 machines, but they will lack the fidelity of the later models and be harder on your records.

[BillH_NJ]

Not sure how convenient my location is but I have several Victor Orthophonics (Credenza, 8-12, two Granadas) as well as a Columbia Viva Tonal 720 and a Sonora Tonalic Concert along with several earlier machines, if you wanted to hear something in NJ.

Bill

[gramophone-georg]

Also, if you prefer records made from 1925 and after, in other words, electrically recorded 78s, you should hear a Victrola Orthophonic machine made to play the records from the late 20s and early 30s. There were other makes that made competing models that played electrically recorded records, such as Columbia Viva Tonal, and Brunswick Panatrope machines. You can play electric records on pre-1925 machines, but they will lack the fidelity of the later models and be harder on your records.

If you add a properly refurbished Victrola No. 4 or HMV No 4 reproducer, I respectfully disagree. My Victor V plays likely as well as an ortho or V-T portable.

[marcapra]

Yes, I have heard some of those Victor open horn machines and they can sound awesome! But I still think an Orthophonic machine would be easier on your records because it has more geometrically accurate tracking of the groove.

[gramophone-georg]

Yes, I have heard some of those Victor open horn machines and they can sound awesome! But I still think an Orthophonic machine would be easier on your records because it has more geometrically accurate tracking of the groove.

Yes, there is that. All I have is my own anecdotal evidence, and I've never noticed any appreciable wear from this. That said, I always keep my soundboxes in top compliance as far as flexibilty- diaphragm gaskets plus isolators. Additionally, I wash every record after playing in the Discwasher before it goes back.

I have also been thinking of adding Burmese needles to my repertoire solely for this application.

[BillH_NJ]

I agree. My Victor D can sound very good with a No. 4 soundbox and doesn’t suffer in comparison to a smaller Orthophonic, although I would still choose my Credenza or 8-12 for repeated listening.

Bill