Question about Canadian Credenza tonearm

[BillH_NJ]

The Canadian Credenza I recently got has an offset turntable, although no record supports on the left side. The tonearm that is in it has the original-style mount without a top bracket unlike the later 8-30s I have seen. The needle falls about ½” short of the center hole of the record and there are no stops to prevent the arm from swinging 180 degrees within the cabinet. I don’t really know about dating Canadian machines, but is this correct or was it modified at some point with different parts?

[Victrola-Monkey]

Bill,

My first thoughts are as the following for your two concerns:

One is that your tonearm may be missing the swing limiting plate that gets mounted under the tone arm support, as shown below. Note the red arrow pointing at the part of the plate that limits the swing. I believe the the early style tonearm use them in the Credenzas (and Borgia’s), while the later style tonearms of the 8-30s (and 9-40s) don’t use those limiting plates. You can check to see if your machine has it’s limiting plate. If it does, maybe it’s upside down.

As you point out, your reproducer’s needle comes short reaching the Spindle, as it should reach. I think maybe it’s possible that the grommet thingy that is on the back of the reproducer (which has its own rotation limiting protrusion), has rotated slightly thus not allowing the reproducer to clockwise rotate enough to allow the needle to reach the Spindle, as well as to place the needle at the proper angle in respect to the record. Otherwise, I found an old picture where I show the measured distance from the center of the gold Early style tonearm (used on Credenzas) to the end where the reproducer attaches. You can compare yours to verify the tonearm is of proper length.

Regarding dating Canadian Victrolas, I wondered how to do such myself. Baumbach’s book “”Victor Data Book” identifies this for US machines and if figure that does not include how many and when of those were made in Canada. Does any one know of a source that gives this information about Canadian made Victrolas?

[BillH_NJ]

Thanks for the response. The Canadian model does not have the limiting plate which is present in the two US Credenzas in my collection. However, if I were to take the tonearm off one of those it would not swing far enough to the right to reach the lead-in groove and would hit the limiter before the end of the record due to the greater offset of the turntable. It would need to be angled to swing farther to the right.

The tonearms on all 3 machines are the same length as in your photo. The reproducers are all set so that the needle reaches the center of the turntable. However, the distance between the center of the mount and the center of the turntable is about ½” longer on the offset Canadian machine than it is on the others, about 10-½” instead of 10”.

I had never checked it before but I examined and measured the setup on my 8-12, which does have the later overhang support and (of course) the offset turntable. The distance between the tonearm mount and turntable is the same as on the Canadian Credenza as is the length of the tonearm. That means that the needle falls short of the center of the turntable by about ½” as well when the reproducer is attached at the same angle as on a US Credenza. Is this true of all the machines with turntables offset to the side, including later 8-30s?

Given all this, I am still wondering about two things. Could there have been a different limiting plate or an overhang mount for the Canadian Credenza (whatever its production date actually was)? Was there a longer Credenza or 8-30 (or 8-12, for that matter) tonearm to accommodate the greater distance between the tonearm mounting and turntable?

Thanks,
Bill

[Victrola-Monkey]

Ok, so your Canadian Credenza tonearm is missing the rotation limiting plate and I do think that is highly feasible there are different rotation limiting plates for the center positioned turntables and offset positioned turntables. Well, that is if you flipped the plate upside down and found that not to position the limits properly.

I take it that your other two US made Credenzas have center positioned turntables and their distances from center to center of the tonearm is ½” less than that off the offset turntable on your Canadian Credenza. So that and the results of your test tells me the following...

I believe all Victrolas were made so the needle reaches the Spindle. That being said, I feel confident in saying the offset turntable Credenzas use a ½” longer tonearm than those that are center positioned. (Note that the crook part of the tone arm may be of different length). Therefore, somebody must have replaced the original tonearm in your offset positioned Credenza with one from a center positioned Credenza, and since the limiting plate that was on that tonearm was causing limits in the wrong place, they just removed it.

To answer your other question, I doubt the overhang support type of tonearms were ever used on the Canadian Credenzas, based upon them not ever being used on the US Credenzas, only the 8-30s.

By the way, the hole that was cut out to mount the tonearms are different on a Credenza than on an 8-30. One tonearm type will work on either machine but the other will only work on the model it was designed for. So knowing what hole type goes with which tonearm, you can easily determine the appropriate type of tonearm. Therefore, if all that I have stated is true, all three of your Credenza tonearm hole types should look the same and different than that of your 8-12, which uses a tonearm that has the overhang support, like the 8-30s.

[JerryVan]

Let's confuse things further. The needle in my center turntable Credenza comes ½" short of the spindle as well. So, if the center turntable models had a shorter arm, (as suggested above), then what model would my tone arm, (which is apparently too short for a center T.T. model), have come from? It's a non-bracketed arm as well, by the way.

In reality, I think both styles of Credenzas used the same tone arm. I believe the added reach needed for the offset TT models was compensated for by moving the turntable/motor back about an inch. If I recall correctly, my offset TT Credenza & my center TT Credenza have crank holes in slightly different locations.

[Victrola-Monkey]

Jerry,

I am glad you checked your center T.T. Credenza. Though I only have checked out this reach issue to the Spindle with random machines of the past, it always was the case where the needle reached the Spindle. As well, I thought I read about it once that it had to, to have proper tracking. I guess not and therefore am convinced you both have the right tonearms and the reach being different than that of the offset T.T. just doesn’t matter. When I get back home next week I will be anxious to do a quick reach check of the tonearm of all my machines.

Prior to the above discussion, I always believed the center and the offset T.T. used the same tonearms but with Bill’s findings of the two having different reaches, as well as the rotation limiting plate missing, I proposed something that was incorrect. Sorry about that.

[BillH_NJ]

Thanks for the suggestions. I think it is possible that someone might have removed the limiting plate from the offset machine since it will not work with the tone arm (which is identical to those on the two center mount machines). The turntable on the offset machine is set about ⅝” closer to the back of the machine but that isn’t enough to adjust the distance from the tone arm mount. Both have a 2” hole for the tone arm but I do notice that the felt washer on the center mount rests on the metal and is almost flush with the top board. The felt falls further into the hole on the offset machine. That, of course, has nothing to do with the overhang or travel limits of the tone arm but it does mean that it doesn’t seal tightly against the base of the tone arm.

Bill

[Victrola-Monkey]

Bill,

The difference in the holes I was referring to is that between that for the tonearm for a Credenza and that for the tonearm of an 8-30.

[BillH_NJ]

Yes, I was just commenting on the difference inside the holes on the two machines. The metal casting comes to about ¼” or ⅜” from the top in my US machine but there is nothing but the wood in the Canadian machine. I’m not sure if that means something is missing or if there was something different about the original tonearm and mount (if in fact the one currently on the machine is not original).

[JerryVan]

Visited a friend of mine who has an offset T.T. 8-30. The needle on his is about ½" short of the spindle as well.