1901 Spur motor from Victor M

[randymullx]

I am working on a single-spring Spur motor from 1901 and question why there is so much play in everything. I realize from previous projects that there should be some play but I'm talking about 1/16" to 3/32" in some cases. I was able to get the motor to run after repairing the governor and it is VERY noisy.....I realize these motors are noisy but the worst noises seem to be between metal surfaces....places where one would think there would be a washer but there isn't one. Did they use some type of fiber or rawhide washers in these motors that may have disintegrated over the years? If so, what should I use for replacements?

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Randy

[phonogfp]

I have seen several early Victor motors where there were ORIGINAL paper shims between metal parts. Don't be afraid to shim where necessary.

George P.

[Phono-Phan]

Can you post pictures? Which shaft has the excessive play you mention?

[JerryVan]

I am working on a single-spring Spur motor from 1901 and question why there is so much play in everything. I realize from previous projects that there should be some play but I'm talking about 1/16" to 3/32" in some cases. I was able to get the motor to run after repairing the governor and it is VERY noisy.....I realize these motors are noisy but the worst noises seem to be between metal surfaces....places where one would think there would be a washer but there isn't one. Did they use some type of fiber or rawhide washers in these motors that may have disintegrated over the years? If so, what should I use for replacements?

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Randy

Pictures would be great. Don't assume that any washers would have to disintegrate to now be gone. This is 119 years old and probably had a lot of "hands" in it over the years, that may have lost a few pieces along the way.

[cheryla]

I do this and shim the gears using brass and it smooths it out. There is a lot of slop in those gear trains and they have noise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByX9pCKU7pQ

[Django]

********Please do not apply abrasive compounds to your gears*******. A problem with “lapping” in gears is that you need to completely remove all of the lapping compound, otherwise, you will continue the wear away the harder material, (if both gears are equally hard, the abrasive particles will remain suspended). Lapping is typically done using a soft lap and a special lapping compound that is like an abrasive grease. The abrasive becomes embedded in the softer lap and that is used to abrade the harder material. I would definitely not advise anyone to apply an abrasive to a gear train.


I just read up on Flitz and they say that it is a cleaner, not an abrasive. If it is not an abrasive it will not lap anything either. It is probably dislodging contaminants. So my revised advice is, please don’t apply an abrasive to your gears. Flitz will not lap you gears and it may clean them. I am not a chemist, so I don’t know. Please, do not lap gears is still the heart of the post. Please don’t substitute something like Semi-chrome, because that is an abrasive paste. Sorry to sound the alarm, but when I saw lapping gears, I was concerned.

[Django]

Gears and gear trains have a number of complexities. The pitch circle and spacing are critical for smoothness. Backlash and clatter do not necessarily mean that the gears are not properly spaced. The teeth on straight cut gears follow an involute spline so that they mesh properly with no fluctuation in speed. Adjusting this is usually a best guess, and imperfect. Proper spacing can be calculated and achieved, but it is a lot of work. Clatter will wear the gear train, but removing all of the backlash will also cause wear. My advise, for whatever it’s worth is to never apply any abrasive to gear teeth and to never remove all of the backlash, (play), from your gear train.

[randymullx]

I want to thank everyone who replied to my original post....all very helpful!! As you all indicated, adjustment was a major part of the issue. Also, I discovered that the fiber gear on the spindle shaft that meshes with the spur gear that turns the governor was completely worn out. I was able to source the fiber gear and the governor springs via Wyatt's. I also bought some weights for an early Victor but didn't use them as I wanted to stay with something closer to what was originally there. Only one of the weights was missing and while I was not able to find a source, I as able to machine one from a piece of brass rod. With some filing, I was able to balance the weights to within .02 grams of one another and it seems to work fine. I'm still tinkering with the adjustment to see if I can get it any quieter but it seems to be running fairly well at this point and I realize these spur motors are pretty noisy as compared to the later versions that had a worm gear for the governor. Here are some photos of the assembled motor.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help.

Randy

[Phono-Phan]

Nice work on the governor weight. Balanced weights are important to reduce the vibration. I see that the plate for the fiber gear has Phillips screws on it. Were these rivets originally?

[startgroove]

One of the things that gets a little confusing about these early Victor motors is that they have been labeled a "spur gear" motor. While it is true the governor gear is a spur gear, the main noise causer in these is the bevel gear. That is the large gear that is driven by the spur gear on the spring barrel and drives the turntable spindle/axle.

While proper shimming can minimize the noise somewhat, it will never completely go away. Once a gear (spur gear or bevel gear) wears improperly, it will get noisier and cannot be muted again even if correctly spaced to the driven gear, because the proper ramps and angles on the teeth gets worn away. I have found that sometimes, a sloppy gear is quieter.

It may help to "lap" those worn teeth, but as in previous discussions, there is some controversy over doing that.

Cheers, Russie

PS, Just for reference, the early motors in my machines all have round governor weights, which appear to be smaller than the ones on yours, though yours is a slightly different motor. In addition, the large governor drive gear on your motor appears to be solid with an outer ring attached to it. Was that a custom made gear?