Machine Oil and Vinegar To Clean Shellac 78s

[Tpapp54321]

Recently I heard that you can use a mixture of machine oil and vinegar to clean 78s, and that it was actually the recommendation back in the day. After some research it seems that it is fact a thing, and was even discussed on AudioKarma: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php ... ar.337948/

I ended up mixing up some myself and tested an a couple worn Victors with the Scroll label. They seemed to have gained a little more of sheen to them and look less “dry” if that makes any sense. To me they actually sound slightly (emphasis on slightly) clearer with less surface noise when played back on a modern setup.

Is it just me or is there something to this? I’m hesitant to follow this method on any of my nicer 78s and I wouldn’t try it on records that were laminated like Columbia’s. Does anyone else have any input on this or use this method themselves?

[Tpapp54321]

For reference this was the method that came from AudioKarma and the one that I followed. Although I used Tri-Flow as I’m not a fan of 3-in-1 oils.

The following cleaning procedure comes from The Gramophone Handbook by Percy Wilson (1957).

• Make a mixture of 2 parts white vinegar and 1 part light machine oil such as 3-in-1.
• Shake mixture to an emulsion.
• Pour about 10 ml in a ring around the playing surface and work it into the grooves until no liquid remains on the surface. Use a piece of lint free cloth for this.
• Leave for one hour at least.
• Using washing up liquid, make a firm lather and wash the disc thoroughly with it.
• Rinse thoroughly with clean tepid water. Try not to soak the label.
• If necessary, wash and rinse again until all traces of residue are removed.
• Blot dry with clean cloth or kitchen towel.
• Put into record rack or prop vertically for at least 24 hours before playing. It takes this time for the shellac to harden again after being wet.
• Record may need playing with an old stylus, brushing off the muck collected from the grooves, before completely clean.

[52089]

To me this seems like extra steps that just introduce additional work and additional gunk.

My usual method is a small amount of Dawn dish soap in an 8 oz glass filled with room temperature water, scrubbed into grooves with a soft toothbrush, then rinsed and air dried. This is essentially the same instructions as the ones you posted, just without the "oil and vinegar" treatment first.

[melvind]

To me this seems like extra steps that just introduce additional work and additional gunk.

My usual method is a small amount of Dawn dish soap in an 8 oz glass filled with room temperature water, scrubbed into grooves with a soft toothbrush, then rinsed and air dried. This is essentially the same instructions as the ones you posted, just without the "oil and vinegar" treatment first.

Agree with you! I often dry off with a microfiber cloth as well. I use a horsehair shoe brush to scrub the soapy water.

[Tpapp54321]

I know I said I wouldn’t try it on a Columbia record, but I had one sitting in front of me that I cleaned earlier this week just using the water and dish soap method.

I used the oil/ vinegar mixture and rubbed in using a piece of scrap felt. Let that sit for 30 minutes then wiped the record with a wet cotton cloth and dried with a dry Cotten cloth. Played the record with a steel needle and a ton of gunk gathered onto the needle on the first play but cleared with each play.

But here’s the difference between the two sides (the first being the one without the vinegar treatment)

[Wolfe]

No good. You can't use oil and vinegar on record. It's not a salad.

[Tpapp54321]

No, no, no, no good. No f-ucking good. You can't use oil and vinegar on record. No way.

That’s certainly what I thought.

I’ve got a lot of time on my hands (Can you tell? ) so I thought I’d experiment more.
So much black gunk was coming off the records on the first play I was worried it was parts of the record itself. So I did the process with an orange Perfect record and I got just as much black gunk, not a hint of red either. And this was on a record I had cleaned with dish soap and water before. I must say I was skeptic of this at first, but I think it might be the new way I clean my records!

[melvind]

It seems to me you are just getting the gunk you put on the record off with a steel needle. That doesn't seem to be a very good thing. Introducing gunk while attempting to clean a record seems wrong to me. It might make it shinier, but that isn't the most important thing. The sound after cleaning is the important thing.

[Orchorsol]

For at least 20 years I've washed mine with washing up liquid, and more recently baby shampoo (because it contains no alcohol - although the alcohol in washing up liquid is so low in concentration I'm almost certain it makes no difference anyway). Until a couple of weeks ago I just used to blot dry with a towel, then kitchen paper, then air dry.

I'm now using a very simple vacuum drying system which has REALLY surprised me with how much cleaner it gets my 78s, both visibly and audibly, by sucking more dirt out of the grooves. Honestly, it's been an absolute revelation. I don't have the photos to hand now but I posted them here (hopefully this is the right page, or if not, it's page 6 of this thread): viewtopic.php?f=18&t=44380&start=50 Professional-style record cleaning for peanuts!

Despite seriously respecting Percy Wilson's work, I am resolutely against putting oil in the grooves. I doubt that washing with soap will get it all out again. Back then, I doubt he would have been thinking about very long term effects and (from my former life in plastics and rubber chemistry) I think there is likely to be a gradual interaction between the shellac and other resins in the record compound. The oil may give a 'helpful' lubricating effect in the shorter term though, plus I find when cleaning records they sometimes sound a bit 'edgier' at first - I believe the accumulation of dirt was probably filling in microscopic damage and/or unwanted crystalline projections in the groove wall (whether exposed by wear or caused by microgranulation) and sometimes a play or two with a steel needle on a good machine is necessary to "settle them down" again, before a thorn or fibre needle will work, or a modern 78 stylus will sound best.

[Wolfe]

I recall that I posted a topic about vinegar cleaning right here on this very forum. I decided I agreed with the opinion that the acidic content of vinegar is probably not great for shellac.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=42103&hilit=vinegar