Pathé Diffusor

[drh]

I raised this question in the Where's Waldo thread in reaction to PeterF's photo, and he (quite rightly) suggested I should put it in a new thread to avoid derailing that one. Here is what I wrote:

[Begin quoted matter]

I see you have a Pathé Diffusor, but yours has the sliding speakhorn, whereas mine (as you can see in my avatar photo thingy) is pivoted. How well does the sliding design work/track? And how's the motor? Mine is very wimpy, and when I've seen ones like yours at auction I've wondered if they were a "higher end" model with a better motor. Ideally, I want something that will play 14" center starts without poohing out and needing touch-up crankings.

Incidentally, my machine is designated a "Diamond," but the cone bears a "Pathé Diffusor" label.

[End quoted matter]

He and I made contact by phone (Peter, enjoyed our chat!), and we decided the best way was to start the thread here in Machines, where the question first came up, but put a "heads up" posting in the European forum. Note to moderators: if that approach is not acceptable, please feel free to reshuffle things as need be.

[phonodesbois]

This is just my opinion and findings....
The Pathé diffusor gramophones were “late” machines and, at that time, most Pathé disks were smaller than 14”. I have a machine similar to yours and you should have inscriptions on the rotating piece (see pic) as 25, 27, 29 which refers (in cm) to the size of the record you want to play. I tried to play a 30cm record (12”) and, altough the motor is powerful enough, the machine was not able to play the very, very last seconds of the record. (If possible, I will try to remove this rotating piece and try to play a 14” record).
Pathé created a product line called “Diamond” and, to my knowledge, some manufacturers were allowed to produce Diamond machines (saphir only) under Pathé license.
Large Pathéphone machines (6 and above) have a more robust motor and do play 14” and sometimes 20” records as well. Maybe, you could try on a needle machine (as a VV VI) with a Hughes stylus...

[phonodesbois]

Brief update.
I was able to “neutralize” the “record size selector” and played a full 12” record and the spring was still wounded enough to play at least half of another record.
Then I tried with a 14” and it stopped at around 12”...
Quite easy to understand: the weight of the 12” record is around 0.6 pound (270gr) while the 14” record weight is around 1.37 pound (620gr)!
(as far as I remenber the weight of a 20” record is around 2.4 pound)

[startgroove]

phonodesbois, I want to understand what you are saying more clearly. Are you saying the weight of the record has a bearing on how long the motor will run?

Does the name "Diffuser" refer to the diaphragm type in some way, or is it related to the style of the cabinet?

We have one with that label on the cone, but it has a lid with adjustable louvres on the top, which acts as a volume control and also reflect the sound horizontally. I will check later to see if it will play through the largest diameter record.

Cheers, Russie

[gramophoneshane]

Pathé created a product line called “Diamond” and, to my knowledge, some manufacturers were allowed to produce Diamond machines (saphir only) under Pathé license..

I was also wondering if the Diamond branded machines had any connection to the Diamond records Pathé produced from 1915-18 for the Diamond Disc Record Co in London?

The record selector is interesting.
I'm guessing the cut out sections on the selector somehow stop the arm traveling any further than the selected size, or trips some sort of auto brake function?
Or is it the records weight that determines when it stops?

I was surprised to see the 14" discs are more than double the weight of a 12" record, considering there's really only a 1" wide ring of shellac added to the outside of a 12" record. But I suppose the larger the diameter, the thicker the pressings became, to compensate for warpage and breakage issues.

[phonodesbois]

phonodesbois, I want to understand what you are saying more clearly. Are you saying the weight of the record has a bearing on how long the motor will run?

Yes, the 14" record is too heavy and/or the motor is too small. (see pic of a Pathé Concert motor)

Does the name "Diffuser" refer to the diaphragm type in some way, or is it related to the style of the cabinet?

It does refer to the diaphragm type

We have one with that label on the cone, but it has a lid with adjustable louvres on the top, which as a volume control and also reflect the sound horizontally. I will check later to see if it will play through the largest diameter record.

I think I have the same one somewhere... but I'm not sure it will play 14" records.

I'm guessing the cut out sections on the selector somehow stop the arm traveling any further than the selected size, or trips some sort of auto brake function?

The selector is very helpful to put the diffuser at the right place but it's not an auto brake.
Cheers, Jeff

[startgroove]

Our Diffuser eventually passed the test. The 29cm record played through fine on the second attempt. The first one failed because I was afraid to wind the crank all the way to the end. The tension required was more than I felt safe about. I counted turns the first time and the play time lasted until about the last few seconds, then began to slow. The second time, I added three more cranks and it played through.

Here are a few pics. I took these pictures before the test so the record on the turntable is not the one I used for the above test.

Cheers, Russie

PS, I think the "weight" you are referring to is the length of play. I think of weight as being how heavy (in grams, ounces or pounds) something might be.

[phonodesbois]

I think the "weight" you are referring to is the length of play. I think of weight as being how heavy (in grams, ounces or pounds) something might be.

I do mean the weight of a 35cm (14") record in grams, ounces or pounds
Cheers, Jeff

Ps: I do have the same model but it's taking too much space!

[drh]

This is just my opinion and findings....
The Pathé diffusor gramophones were “late” machines and, at that time, most Pathé disks were smaller than 14”. I have a machine similar to yours and you should have inscriptions on the rotating piece (see pic) as 25, 27, 29 which refers (in cm) to the size of the record you want to play. I tried to play a 30cm record (12”) and, altough the motor is powerful enough, the machine was not able to play the very, very last seconds of the record. (If possible, I will try to remove this rotating piece and try to play a 14” record).
Pathé created a product line called “Diamond” and, to my knowledge, some manufacturers were allowed to produce Diamond machines (saphir only) under Pathé license.
Large Pathéphone machines (6 and above) have a more robust motor and do play 14” and sometimes 20” records as well. Maybe, you could try on a needle machine (as a VV VI) with a Hughes stylus...

Interesting--Pathé never ceases to come up with surprises. My machine has no sign of the little rotating selector on yours; a photo is below. I gather from what I read downthread that the selector is like those 10" and 12" buttons on some diamond disc machines, a way to position the reproducer (or in this case cone) without eyeballing the stylus.

I don't often play my Diffusor, I'll confess; when it's "on," it is a wonderful sounding machine, and with some records it develops astonishing volume, but leaving aside that cuing up the record is a bit challenging, that weak motor is a perpetual problem. I do have a vertical cut adapter for my Victor V, and I usually play my Pathé records on that machine instead. Some day I hope to find a good Pathé open horn machine with a stout motor, as you described above, but those do not turn up often in the United States, and even if I were willing to pay the sky-high $$$ to have one shipped from overseas, when Pathé machines show up on eBay from abroad the descriptions and photos seldom make clear how well they are motored.

[edit] I always wondered why my machine had that finger sticking out of the cone pivot. Having seen the selector knob, I'm thinking maybe it was intended to engage that mechanism on machines so equipped. Or perhaps mine is not complete? Now there's a happy thought...

[gramophoneshane]

phonodesbois, I want to understand what you are saying more clearly. Are you saying the weight of the record has a bearing on how long the motor will run?

Yes, the 14" record is too heavy and/or the motor is too small.

Sorry, but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I mean, if you stack 3 records on top of each other to triple the weight, it's going to make next to no difference to the running time of the motor, especially if the motor is strong enough to play one and a half 12" records.

Am I right to assume the record selector is only useful with outside start Pathé's, in the same way as Edison's buttons as stated above?

When you stated above that the 14" record stopped around 12", I thought you must have meant it was doing so by some mechanical means, but it seems it was just slowing to a stop.

I've found my Pathé 10 needs to be fully wound to play 14" discs without slowing prematurely, and I just stacked 3 X 14" records on the turntable and it still plays fine, so I don't think the extra weight makes any difference.
If the machine was slowing straight away at the outer edge of the record then it could be due to extra force being exerted on bearings etc because the defuser is lowered further away from the centre spindle, but that doesn't seem to be the case here..

I wonder if like Russie found with his 12" records, youre not winding it enough to be able to play for the extra 45-60 seconds needed for a 14" disc?