Please help identifying this phonograph

[alang]

I bought my first external horn phonograph on ebay and got it delivered today. Well, I know it's definitely a fixer upper, but that's what I like
It does not have any markers or decals, but from the tonearm, back bracket, etc I assume it was made by Columbia for some other company? It also has the identical oiling instruction sticker on the inside like a Columbia machine I just saw on phonophan's website. Motor seems to be original, but unfortunately is only a small single spring. Governor weights and springs are missing, and it does not have a turntable brake. I'm confused, because I do not even see screw holes for a brake. I assume every machine has to have a brake, correct?
I'm also not sure about the reproducer, first I thought it was some later cheapo from a portable, but it has a mica diaphragm, so maybe it's original?
I appreciate any insight or comment.
Thanks
Andreas

[Uncle Vanya]

Your machine appears to be a Royal, which is, as you suspected, a Columbia client model, made for the rural store trade, 'though some of these machines were also iffered un-branded as store machines. I recall seeing one of these with a Siegel label, and another quite similar machine (similar, but fitted with a 2-spring German motor, rather than the single-spring motor used in the Royal) branded "Ludwig Bauman".

[estott]

Could the brake be part of the speed control on the side? Columbia tended to use brakes which acted on the governor instead of the turntable.

[phonojim]

The brake appears a plunger iwhich runs through the center of the speed control. I can't recall any Columbia that used a turntable brake. The reproducer looks like a Columbia Concert Grand.

Jim

[alang]

Your machine appears to be a Royal, which is, as you suspected, a Columbia client model, made for the rural store trade, 'though some of these machines were also iffered un-branded as store machines. I recall seeing one of these with a Siegel label, and another quite similar machine (similar, but fitted with a 2-spring German motor, rather than the single-spring motor used in the Royal) branded "Ludwig Bauman".
Your machine appears to be a Royal, which is, as you suspected, a Columbia client model, made for the rural store trade, 'though some of these machines were also iffered un-branded as store machines. I recall seeing one of these with a Siegel label, and another quite similar machine (similar, but fitted with a 2-spring German motor, rather than the single-spring motor used in the Royal) branded "Ludwig Bauman".

Uncle Vanya, thank you very much for that information. Does "Royal" mean "Royal Phonograph Company of Chicago"? If yes, that would be quite a coincidence, because I have an upright from them still in my garage waiting to be restored. Would a Royal typically have any type of decal, if yes, do you know of any reproductions available?

Could the brake be part of the speed control on the side? Columbia tended to use brakes which acted on the governor instead of the turntable.
Could the brake be part of the speed control on the side? Columbia tended to use brakes which acted on the governor instead of the turntable.

Thanks estott. I'll have to check that, right now it's all rusted...

The brake appears a plunger iwhich runs through the center of the speed control. I can't recall any Columbia that used a turntable brake. The reproducer looks like a Columbia Concert Grand.

Thanks phonojim. I'll try if I can get the plunger working with WD40 etc. Would be great if that was really a Columbia Concert Grand reproducer.

Thanks to all
Andreas

[Uncle Vanya]

Your machine appears to be a Royal, which is, as you suspected, a Columbia client model, made for the rural store trade, 'though some of these machines were also iffered un-branded as store machines. I recall seeing one of these with a Siegel label, and another quite similar machine (similar, but fitted with a 2-spring German motor, rather than the single-spring motor used in the Royal) branded "Ludwig Bauman".
Your machine appears to be a Royal, which is, as you suspected, a Columbia client model, made for the rural store trade, 'though some of these machines were also iffered un-branded as store machines. I recall seeing one of these with a Siegel label, and another quite similar machine (similar, but fitted with a 2-spring German motor, rather than the single-spring motor used in the Royal) branded "Ludwig Bauman".

Uncle Vanya, thank you very much for that information. Does "Royal" mean "Royal Phonograph Company of Chicago"? If yes, that would be quite a coincidence, because I have an upright from them still in my garage waiting to be restored. Would a Royal typically have any type of decal, if yes, do you know of any reproductions available?

Could the brake be part of the speed control on the side? Columbia tended to use brakes which acted on the governor instead of the turntable.
Could the brake be part of the speed control on the side? Columbia tended to use brakes which acted on the governor instead of the turntable.

Thanks estott. I'll have to check that, right now it's all rusted...

The brake appears a plunger iwhich runs through the center of the speed control. I can't recall any Columbia that used a turntable brake. The reproducer looks like a Columbia Concert Grand.

Thanks phonojim. I'll try if I can get the plunger working with WD40 etc. Would be great if that was really a Columbia Concert Grand reproducer.

Thanks to all
Andreas

Royal machines generally were fitted with a brass tag, which was nailed to the front panel (side panel for inside horn machines) in the manner of a Victor name-plate. The Royal plate was smaller than the Victor plate, though, being about 1" tall and 2-2 ½" wide. This name-plate generally specified neither model nor serial number. Royal was indeed a Chicago company, believed to be related to Consolidated, marketers of a variety of Columbia-derived "Scheme machines" and odd center-hole disc records.

This machine appears to have been (originally) fitted with the "Client" (un-branded) version of the Concert Grand reproducer. Later production used the common Columbia No. 5 and No. 6 units with aluminum diaphragms which effectively obscured the Columbia trade-marks.

[alang]

Thanks again for all the information and insight. I found a picture of what closely resembles my machine in the Talking Machine Compendium. I also checked at the front of the case, but there are no nail holes as sign of a brass tag being attached at some time. Maybe it was glued, or it was a no name after all?

I checked and found that there is a brake plunger in the speed control bar. It moves but is not working at this point, probably because the governor is messed up.

I opened the reproducer, which really seems to be an unmarked Concert Grand. Unfortunately it seems that the rubber gasket is one ring with a groove in the middle for the diaphragm. Does anyone know if such gaskets are still available?

I am having a hard time getting the turntable off, it seems rusted solid to the spindle. It's already been soaked over night in WD40. Any suggestions?

Thanks
Andreas

[Boyle6]

Andreas. congratulations on your new machine, it looks like it will be fun to restore. I wish I could help you with the actual player, but to remove the turntable I would try soaking the spindle with PB penetrating oil. It is designed for removing rusty parts and should work better than WD-40. You can get it at any auto parts place or places like Walmart etc. Good luck and keep all of us posted with pictures as things progress.

[estott]

I've heard that you can touch a hot soldering iron to the spindle- the expansion of the metal is supposed to break the rust bond. Maybe you could also use a torch but I'd be cautious of the cast iron cracking.

[alang]

Andreas. congratulations on your new machine, it looks like it will be fun to restore. I wish I could help you with the actual player, but to remove the turntable I would try soaking the spindle with PB penetrating oil. It is designed for removing rusty parts and should work better than WD-40. You can get it at any auto parts place or places like Walmart etc. Good luck and keep all of us posted with pictures as things progress.

Thanks for the tip, I tried "Blaster PB" penetrating oil and got the turntable off after soaking for an hour or so. Great stuff.
I'll try to remember to take pictures of the progress, but usually by the time I remember to take a picture I'm already up to the elbows in graphite grease
Thanks
Andreas