How to identify acoustic 78 labels for VV-IX?

[gramophoneshane]

Big Band onward, is there an established name for last?? Thanks.
John S.

I've wondered about this myself, and have been asked on youtube etc countless times. My answer is always the same-
I dont know, but "I" call it pop music (as in popular music). Or at least, that's what I call the stuff that doesn't fall into any other specific (obvious) genre like country & western.
Still, I never feel quite right using the word Pop because the styles and influences on music from after the war until the onset of rock n roll were many and varied.
"The Waltzing Cat" by Leroy Anderson & his Orch, is very different from "Quicksilver" by Bing & the girls, which is very different from "mona Lisa" by Nat King Cole, yet each one was a big 1950 hit, meaning they were indeed "popular".
I guess an expert or "purist" could most likely define them better as being influenced by the blues or other genres, but I'm no closer to figuring that out and probably never will be

As for when steel needles became totally obsolete and diamond and sapphire stli replaced them, I really dont know either. Over here in Australia, it didn't really happen until around 1952/53 when microgroove 33s and 45s hit the mainstream public, and 3 speed changers and record players came in.
Until then, it seems all of our pressing were made to handle a steel needle, with either an acoustic soundbox or light weight electric pick-up.
I'm sure it's a very different story for USA & UK though.
Even US & UK pressing I have from the early 40s dont hold up well with a steel needle & electric pick-up, and playing them on an acoustic machine chews them up before your eyes.

[Guest]

That may be the best categorization...Acoustic - Orthophonic - and Electrical Pickup Eras. Just from my online reading I guess Orthophonic recordings were on the way out by about 1931?? Which leaves me with the same question of are there any ways to discern which records are made for Orthophonic and which were made for electrical pickup in that transition period? I'm sure not every Ortho record stated Electrical Process on it. I don't want to grind up a non-Orthophonic recording on my Victrola when I have a modern turntable with 78rpm/diamond stylus that can handle those. Thanks. John

[Viva-Tonal]

That may be the best categorization...Acoustic - Orthophonic - and Electrical Pickup Eras. Just from my online reading I guess Orthophonic recordings were on the way out by about 1931?? Which leaves me with the same question of are there any ways to discern which records are made for Orthophonic and which were made for electrical pickup in that transition period? I'm sure not every Ortho record stated Electrical Process on it. I don't want to grind up a non-Orthophonic recording on my Victrola when I have a modern turntable with 78rpm/diamond stylus that can handle those. Thanks. John

Easy....acoustic Victors (10" black labels prior to number 19626 generally) will not have a VE symbol in the dead wax, just inside the last groove, on each side. (Early copies of 19427 are acoustically recorded, but this record was remade in 1926. The remake has the oval VE symbol on both sides, and can be found on both batwing and scroll labels.)

There were several restylings of the scroll label through its period of use (1926-1937). All with the exception of the final restylings adopted in 1934/1935 sport 'Orthophonic Recording' on them. On black labels, this coincides with the corporate name change to RCA Manufacturing Co, and the letters VE which appear at the tops and bottoms of the earlier styles were also dropped.

I have seen a photo of a Red Seal from c. 1934 which replaced 'Orthophonic Recording' with 'Red Seal Record', whilst the company name remained RCA Victor Company, Inc. This label also dispensed with the name 'Victrola' which had been used on most all Red Seal records for c. 17 years (per THE PAPER DOG) and returned to the name Victor. The letters VE also remained. In 1935, the Red Seal label changed again, to conform to the new and final styling of the black labels (the 'Red Seal Record' line remained, but the letters VE were removed, and the corporate name was changed to RCA Manufacturing Co).

I guess you could classify the Orthophonic era as in two periods, based on the recording equipment used. The first era, 1925-1931, used exclusively Western Electric equipment, whether with a carbon or a condenser microphone. These records have the VE symbol in an oval in the dead wax.

The second era, beginning in 1931, was the beginning of using technology developed by RCA, including such microphones as the 44 series of ribbons. Many of the 1931-1933 era records made with the RCA technology can sound stunningly good played on modern equipment, as they hadn't learnt how to 'dumb down' the dynamic and frequency range of the recordings so they didn't self-destruct so quickly when played on the prevailing quality of most machines still in use then. These records, and as well for many Victors recorded as late as 1939, will sport the letters VE inside a diamond shape.

Around 1938, with the adoption of the first 'circle' label, there was a subtle change in the shellac composition which made the new records slightly quieter than many earlier Orthophonic era discs, but these discs were beginning to be designed more for the newer record changers then appearing, with pickups that tracked at one ounce, if not lighter. (Earlier Orthophonic discs were made for either electric or acoustic Orthophonic players.) Part of what permitted these newer records to last longer was the adoption of signal processing including compression and limiting, and eliminating virtually everything above 7500 Hz in the audio (the aforementioned 'dumbing down').

Around 1947, there were some changes in the recording apparatus and recording characteristics that gradually allowed frequencies above 7500 Hz to return to their records. (There was also a series of 'Red Seal Deluxe' records pressed on translucent red vinyl.) These post-war records were pressed from a much finer shellac powder that gave new pressings a bright glossy appearance, and quieter surfaces than ever before. They were also more brittle and fragile than earlier records, and were intended only for post-war changers and high fidelity equipment. This quality of shellac was used into the 1950s, into the 'New Orthophonic High Fidelity' era, and on to the end of 78s in the US in 1958.

[Guest]

So, can we say that, at least with Victor recordings, the shellac and hardness of a 78 pressed up through 1937 is safe for an orthophonic victrola (like a VV2-55)?
I had thought that perhaps anything after early 1935 (like nothing with a higher number on the label than 2500) would be damaged by a steel needle. If I can look for records from 1935-1936-1937 that opens up my collection considerably, as that might include the 20- series of RCA Victor that begin in 1937 (right?)

And finally, can I follow the same advice for the other labels?

Thanks again,

johnk.

[gramophoneshane]

And finally, can I follow the same advice for the other labels?

I wouldn't think so, but then my experience with American pressings is pretty limited.
I do think that Brunswicks electrical records wear easily with steel needles, which is a shame because there's a lot of fantastic music on the label.
Some cheap labels from the 20s like Oriole seem virtually indestructible, while others like Lincoln, perfect & Emerson I've found to be middle of the road, and brands like Banner & Dominoes might as well be made from butter.
If in doubt, I'd say your best bet would be to start using bamboo and cactus needles. There's little chance these fibre needles will even wear plastic discs from the 50s.

[johnk]

[quote="gramophoneshane"][quote="Guest"]And finally, can I follow the same advice for the other labels?

[/quote]

I'd say your best bet would be to start using bamboo and cactus needles. There's little chance these fibre needles will even wear plastic discs from the 50s.[/quote]

Thanks! I have been looking onto that. Some very good threads on that subject here!
Much appreciated,
johnk.