Pacent Fonomotor help please

[vichighmathguy]

Hello everyone,
I know this is a little outside the focus of this group but I know there is often some overlap into electric era, so please forgive me what follows.
I have a 1930-ish English Expert Junior with a Garrard 30 motor. Motor runs great although it takes forever to wind up and is somewhat undersprung (two ¾" x 8' springs). I'm toying with the idea of putting an electric motor into this wonderful gramophone (don't worry - the motor board can be cleanly lifted out, preserved and temporarily replaced so no harm will have come to the machine in the next owner's eyes). Originally, retro conversions were performed by the manufacturer in England often using Collaro electric motors. What I have in my parts shed is a 1928-29 North American Pacent Phonomotor (picture attached) which appears to be another well built motor. After going through it, I will have to make a missing eccentric speed adjustor (can do that) and modify a turntable to fit it (can do that too although it will be work). Here is my question: I have not been able to find detailed photos of such a platter. It would have a long core with a cone on the lower end to mesh with the one on the motor.
Does anyone have this motor on a machine and could look at the platter for me? I need to know how much friction exists along the turntable shaft or whether it is somewhat loose along its length, possibly creating some "wiggle" in the turntable. The reason I wonder this is that there is a "felt cone friction drive" which I am guessing involves some felt between the two mating cones. There will be some machining time so I would prefer to get this right the first time. Originally, this motor could be retrofit to an earlier phonograph, or was marketed as a complete phonograph under the name "Pacent Electrovox".
Thanks for contacting me if you have such a machine or, even better, if you have a surplus correct turntable. Or, even better, if you have a surplus Collaro or Thorens 201 motor. Images attached (not much available on the internet).

[Orchorsol]

Exciting to hear of another Expert Junior! I can't help with the Pacent motor and turntable, but I can tell you that many Experts were supplied from new with Collaro motors (I have two examples), not just retro-fitted. Even so, it's good to hear you'll preserve the original motorboard!

[vichighmathguy]

Thanks, Orchorsol
Yes, in my enthusiasm to support the idea of retrofitting, I glossed completely over the fact that these were also factory original (for some owners). For those less familiar with these machines, the motors were not made by EMG/Expert, but were sourced from other suppliers and many variations exist.
All the best,
Don

[kirtley2012]

A very nice Junior you have there, is that an Idelia to it's left?

I have an Expert Junior with a motor conversion done by Expert (from Collaro D-30 to it's current Collaro AC-47) and an Expert Senior with it's original Collaro AC 37 motor.

Collaro motors do show up, there are currently three AC-47's on UK ebay, and when serviced, they are very good motors, this one has it's turntable too, and is apparently working, additionally it would be a 'correct' motor for an Expert machine as they were originally fitted with them, when fitted to a new motor board to preserve the original it should give you a good performer of a gramophone, and if the cable is routed out of the winding escutcheon (as it is on my Junior) it would allow you to revert to original specifications at any point

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-1940 ... Sw31xflemG

[epigramophone]

My Expert Minor had a Collaro electric motor from new, but by the time I acquired it it had become noisy and needed a nudge on the turntable rim to start it. It also had the original twin core (no earth ) cotton braided cable, crudely connected with insulating tape to a length of 3 core PVC cable.

Not wishing to burn the house down, I got my good friend and electrical genius Adrian Tuddenham to rewire it to modern safety standards. On his advice I sourced a Garrard electric motor which after a small unobtrusive alteration to the wooden motor board "dropped straight in" as the dimensions of the motor plate are the same as the Collaro. If Adrian ever has the time he will overhaul the Collaro which I can then keep as a spare.

Most EMG and Expert machines predate the creation of the National Grid in the UK. Voltages were not yet standardised, and many rural areas were not even connected to the mains supply. I have seen machines not only converted from spring to electric power, with the cable fed through the winding hole as Alex mentions, but also from electric to spring.

[vichighmathguy]

Kirtley2012:
Thank you so much for your tip about UK auctions and the link you sent. I think it would have made an excellent choice for the machine although the seller has told me that he will not ship here to Canada. Too bad although the cost of shipping would add £50-70 to the cost. That's just the way it would have to be. Too bad since, if under 2.2 kg, the cost would be minimal. In any event, that is a source that I can keep in touch with. As it is, I am curious as to how the Pacent motor will turn out after a clean/lub process. It might turn out to be as satisfactory as the Collaro (see epigramophone's comment).
And yes, that is an Idelia Here is a more recent photo:

Epigramophone:
Those were interesting comments. I know the old wiring is an issue. I can't chase old wires back into the motor to replace them although I can from a point outside the motor. Not flexing the old wiring any more than necessary will be desirable for sure. I'm not sure if grounding ("earthing"?) is necessary inasmuch as many of our North American appliances (hand mixers for example) are not similarly grounded while others are. My uneducated guess is that grounded is necessary where there is some risk of a circuit being completed through the casing. Someone with more electrical knowledge will have to inform here.

Thank you both.
Don

[kirtley2012]

Hi Don

If it would help I'd be happy to be a middle ground, strip the motor of its case and send it on in a smaller package for whatever the cost would be

Very nice Idelia, I had a butchered case from one once, just wish I'd had the rest!

[vichighmathguy]

Why, thank you, kirtley2012. What a kind offer! I'll send you a message off-list in a few minutes to chat about this with you

[VanEpsFan1914]

I have a Majestic motor by Grigsby-Grunow that is a little more ornate but functionally the same as the Pacent Fonomotor unit. The felt cone working as a power transfer is actually pressed leather on my example though felt would probably serve OK.