Wanted: Victor III Project: New to Forum!

[Dischoard]

Good morning everyone, I have been an off and on lurker for many years though as my kids have gotten older I find myself with a little more time on my hands. I've recently been going through and sorting my 78 collection and putting it on Discogs one label at a time (and both dreading and excited about the day I tackle those Victors ).

I've also tackled a few phonograph projects. I'm nowhere near being able to do the cabinet restorations that folks here have done but I'm okay with mechanical stuff. I have the usual VV-X J, VV-VI F, VV-400, Grafonola Favorite, Graphophone Type AT and an Edison William & Mary C 33 and I've freshened up the reproducers on all of them. I'm actually bringing the VV-X in to school where I teach high school music, I'm going to bring in some of my best (worst) records, teach the kids how to use it and let them run wild. It'll be great to teach them about old popular music, sound, mechanics (I love how quickly you can open these things up to demonstrate the mechanism), etc.

This brings me to my question. My dream since high school when I first picked up an old oak box full of 25 E. Berliner's Gramophone records was to find the proper machine to play them on. I've always wanted an old horn model Gramophone but when they do come up they are quite a chunk of change. My daughter is heading off to college and my son will be 2 years behind and so I wonder about doing this piece by piece. It's like my motorcycle collection: I buy the frame and then over time I buy the parts... that way I never know what I've got into it. I still say my BSA Lightning only cost me $750 and I'm sticking to it!

So any suggestions? Anybody know of a basket-case machine or pieces and parts for sale so I can start a new project? Or, from experience, do you find the best way is to get a whole machine? These things come up about as often as a copy of Mele Kilikimaka by Bing Crosby on 45 (which I'm also looking for for our jukebox... oh yeah, we have a jukebox as well... $60 ). Any suggestions would be great or fingers pointed in the right direction. Located in VT which seems quite far away from where everything is happening EXCEPT that we do have an excellent phonograph service business located in St. Johnsbury. Always fun for a day trip (pre and hopefully post Covid).

Thanks everyone, looking forward to participating in all the discussions. Cheers!

[fran604g]

Welcome to the forum!

I think you've begun in the right "place". Usually our many helpful members here aren't shy with good advice, and I'm reasonably certain something to start your journey will come along relatively quick.

Cheers,
Fran

[Jerry B.]

Starting with a small part of a disc phono project is an expensive task. The sum of the parts is greater than the complete unit. There are profiteers that make money by buying a complete working machine and selling the individual parts. I would suggest advertising in the Trader section of our Forum for a project machine. I would recommend a more commonly found manufacturer like Victor or Columbia because it's so much easier to find parts. Something like a Columbia BI or a Victor II or III are quality machines and quite common. I advertised for a Victor IV project within the last year and found a member that sold me one for $550 or so. It was missing the horn, horn elbow, the cabinet needed some repair as did the motor. Also the bright parts needed nickeling. I would guess a Victor III project to be $100 to $150 less and a Victor II even slightly less. Hope this helps.

Jerry B.

[phonogfp]

This brings me to my question. My dream since high school when I first picked up an old oak box full of 25 E. Berliner's Gramophone records was to find the proper machine to play them on. I've always wanted an old horn model Gramophone but when they do come up they are quite a chunk of change.

Welcome to the Forum!

The answer to your question lies in the definition of the term "proper." A Berliner "Improved Gramophone" (commonly called the "trademark model" among collectors) would be historically "proper," but it will sound pretty awful and will not be kind to your Berliner records (which these days typically sell for $50 and upwards past $1000 depending on what's on them). Slightly later common front-mount disc machines such as a Victor E or an AH Graphophone will sound much better, but they will still make short work of your valuable records.

Frankly, anything employing steel needles will slowly ruin your Berliner records. Many of us don't play such early records on anything but more modern electric turntables with lightweight tone arms and jewel styli. Being a school music teacher, you're undoubtedly familiar with school phonographs such as Newcomb, Audiotronics, and Califone. These types are a much better choice for valuable records than period machines. Many of them have a variable-speed control, which is ideal for early discs which were often recorded at speeds other than 78 rpm.

It's true that you can go to a number of Facebook groups and find videos of people happily playing their Berliner discs on front-mount machines. It's also true that these folks are ruining their records, which is of course their prerogative, but my advice is to be kind to valuable records.

All that said, Berliner Gramophones don't pop up for sale too often, and when they do the price is typically in the thousands of dollars. Even parts and pieces bring very strong prices from those trying to complete their examples. Worse, Berliners are often sold with incorrect horns, traveling arms, sound boxes, or cranks. If you're not familiar with these machines, you should educate yourself before investing in one. Here's a Berliner "Improved Gramophone" currently for sale which has a good reproduction crank and leather elbow, and is fairly priced:

https://forum.antiquephono.org/classifi ... hone-3750/

I can't remember the last time I played a record on a Berliner Gramophone, but I'm betting it was about 7 years ago when a friend wanted to hear one play. (I certainly played a common disc such as an Emerson or a Little Wonder.) Berliner motors are noisy and the sound boxes do not reproduce very well. Sure, it works, but it's not a good way to play records - especially valuable ones.

I hope this rambling will be somehow helpful!

Best,
George P.

[Dischoard]

All of these tips and info are exactly what I was hoping to learn. Thanks so much for taking the time to reply everyone. I'm jotting down notes now that I know where the journey should begin.

I'm certainly familiar with the Califone, I have one in my attic. Never thought of it as a good example of something to play these records on, I may have even tried it once with unsatisfactory results though that could just be the machine needing some service. Even this machine was a little before my time. I know these Berliner's don't have terrific audio quality just given the nature of the recording process and the years, my thought was to record playing them each once and on something "period", then record playing them on a turntable I've got setup to play at 78 rpm (with a Shure M78 stylus). But if you say it would wreck the record I certainly don't want to contribute to their delinquency.

I like the idea of tracking down one of the more easily acquirable Victor machines. I think that will be my next step. Just as a fun part of the collection. I have many records that aren't in terrific shape that could go a round or two with a bruiser like one of those.

Thanks all!

[Dischoard]

Just changed the title as it looked like I was already breaking a rule on my first post. Let's see if I can come up with a decent Victor III project though I would be willing to tackle the others you mentioned as well.

[Inigo]

WHen using the Califone for 78s, especially early ones (1900s to 1940s) be sure to use a diamond or sapphire stylus special for 78s, not a normal microgroove stylus. The grooves of 78s were much wider than those of the 45s or LPs. You need to use a 2.5mil to 3mil stylus. It could well be that ever you tried to play a 78 on it you'd get disappointed by the bad and unclear sound. THe narrow microgroove stylus gets lost in the depths of the Groove, sliding from side to side and not playing the music, which is in the walls of the Groove. Trying a larger stylus makes all the difference. You'll hear hiss and crackle, but the music should come out shiny and crisp and clear as a bell!

[Inigo]

WHen using the Califone for 78s, especially early ones (1900s to 1940s) be sure to use a diamond or sapphire stylus special for 78s, not a normal microgroove stylus. The grooves of 78s were much wider than those of the 45s or LPs. You need to use a 2.5mil to 3mil stylus. It could well be that ever you tried to play a 78 on it you'd get disappointed by the bad and unclear sound. THe narrow microgroove stylus gets lost in the depths of the Groove, sliding from side to side and not playing the music, which is in the walls of the Groove. Trying a larger stylus makes all the difference. You'll hear hiss and crackle, but the music should come out shiny and crisp and clear as a bell!

[Dischoard]

Definitely aware of the differences in groove width between 78s and lps. I bought a special stylus for my TT (Shure M78s) just for playing them. The Califone that I have has an LP/78 flippable stylus, I think it was just very well used by many children before it was given to me by a retiring teacher in a school that I worked in. I'm sure I just need to invest in a new needle for this thing. Thanks so much!

[Inigo]

I sometimes use a well worn out LP sapphire stylus, and found that when it's worn, it fits the 78 grooves perfectly, and the sound is marvelous!. I must confess that I've been making my own 78 styli from fresh cheap LP sapphires, grinding carefully the point out with a fine diamond powder nail file. After some trial and error, eventually I reach the proper size, and the 78s sound nice and clear! I've been doing this for years, as I've had several record players with ceramic cartridges, and a surplus stock of double flip over LP styli. I even grind one side to one size, and the other to a greater size, for I've found some records having wider grooves sound better with the thicker stylus.