New Nippers Sign!

[gramophone78]

Shane, thanks for your kind words. However, I have been known to be wrong like anyone else. That is why I would recomend checking with the Rolfs too. It never hurts to get another opinion.Ortho, thank you for posting more pics showing how these all differ. You can see paw changes and also if you look at the travel arm and support. You can see that some are hollow & others are solid. I wonder if there were more than one place that was making these??. Maybe it is just because they have been made over a long period of time 20+ years. Who knows. I have never spent the time to follow these.
This does bring me to another item related to this sign that just burns me everytime I see a "original" on Ebay. The HMV record holder.In all the years of Ebay, I have only seen three real ones sell. There are a ton of the plaster ones on the market. Again, some better than others.After awhile they stopped selling and collectors started to relize that the "real" ones were of fine cast "iron".So, like anything they are now on the market in cast iron.
Most of the long time collectors know that back in the day of casting the sand was very fine and the casting was very,very good. Today, to keep cost down and pump them out,the casting is much rougher.
So, for those that care. Here is a "real" record holder. Again,on the back is the patent info that the factory has covered with varnish. Another way to spot a copy cast issue is the back support arm. The "real" one comes to a finer point. You can download my pics and if one comes up, use them to compare. Check the fine detail.
Sorry, if this has put the forum to sleep. I think the main purpose of a forum is the help and learn what we can from each other (IMHO). However, as I said.....I could be wrong .
One last thing I should add regarding these signs in question and why they were made in India (other than the cost factor).The sign is suppose to be a HMV sign from the UK gramophone company.Not, from the Victor company. Since the UK company sold in India that is what the makers are familier with.So,they went with it. If a sign like this is found in North America it should raise a red flag right away if you know this. The sign would have never been from here in the first place. However, if you are in a country that the UK company sold within.......well, that could get you.
It's funny in the 25 years I have bought out of Mexico how I have seen how they age things. I have been to the places where the Crapophones are made and it just makes me shake my head .

[Ole Canal Antiques]

Enamel signs is one area of antiques that I know little about, but generally speaking, you will often find repros with varying designs, because either the producer tried to improve the design or make variations so collectors would buy more of their product, or because there was more than one company making them at same or different times.
Victor on the other hand, might order x number of signs & once they were gone, they'd order x number again. Several orders might be placed over x number of years using the same design, & from time to time would have had new "modernised" artwork submitted & produced, and the process would start over again.
I can usually tell a repro from an original enamel sign (or most other things) "when I can handle & examine it in person", but it's very difficult (for me) to judge accurately by looking at a picture alone.
My gut feeling is that this is a repro, but I could very well be wrong. It just doesn't appear to have the quality & detail of an original to me. It looks more like the repro needle tins we see over here on ebay constantly, that come from Asia.
There are some very good repros around these days, because prices of originals have sored, and they are now aware of telltale signs like using thinner enamel & having less weight than originals, so they have rectified obvious problems with the intentions to deceive. They're no longer just a cool looking nostalgic item produced the hang behind the bar, as was generally the case 20 or 30 yrs ago.
But, as I said, I dont have a lot of experience with this type stuff, as I'm far more into general household items than industrial/advertising type things, so I honestly dont know.
I would like to add however, that there are a few guys on this forum that are specialist collectors of Victor & other phonograph "memerabilia" like this, who have been in the game for many years & have personally seen more of these items than we've had hot breakfasts, so if someone like gramophone78 says it's a repro, then I believe it a repro unless proven beyond a shadow of a doubt otherwise.

Even if it is a repro, it doesn't mean it's not collectible, or have some monetry or artistic value. It just means it's not worth as much as an original. If you got it at a good price, it's probably still a good price provided you didn't pay some outlandish price thinking it was good price based on what originals fetch. It's still a good solid item, possibly with some age to it, that quite a few collectors would still be interested in, so there is still a decent market for this kind of thing, just as there is for brand new Nipper salt & pepper shakers.

Mine is not Enamel, it's Porcelain.. They came two sided as well. I can assure you mine is real, i had one of my buddys come in my store today and offer me $900 to take it off my wall, of course i didn't because i like it..

[Ole Canal Antiques]

I was able to spot an oval sign similar to the image of the reproduction you posted above, but with badly drawn feet/paws--whatever. It should be call "Nipper in Need of a Pedicure."


FROM: http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.a ... id=7575715

Another oval sign, also similar to the one you have...

......
was listed for sale on this site -- http://www.mmdigest.com/Gallery/Auction ... 305En.html

I noticed that the main difference is that it does not have the yellow/gold border.

I'm just curios why you say it's a reproduction, no one has said anything other than they have a hunch or they think it's a repop, no reason why they think that.. Both the sings you show are obviously repops and both are different than mine..

[gramophoneshane]

I can asure you, it IS enamel, and NOT porcelain. It's just one of those inaccurate name changes Americans seem to be fond of. Baked enamel, vitreous enamel, & enamelware are common names for this in other countries, and porcelain is the stuff teacups & toilet bowls are made of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitreous_enamel

I'm not meaning to sound rude, but I'm curious. How long have you been an antique dealer?

[OrthoFan]

I'm just curios why you say it's a reproduction, no one has said anything other than they have a hunch or they think it's a repop, no reason why they think that.. Both the sings you show are obviously repops and both are different than mine..

I was referring to the picture posted of the square sign, above, in which you wrote:

"Here is a repop, they also came in the oval design. Look at how Nippers is solid white with no black shading and look at his feet.."

I had actually written and edited my sentence a couple times prior to posting it, and in the last edit, forgot to remove the word "but."

It should have read: "I was able to spot an oval sign similar to the image of the reproduction you posted above, with badly drawn feet/paws..."

Sorry 'bout that.

[Guest]

[quote="gramophoneshane"]I can asure you, it IS enamel, and NOT porcelain. It's just one of those inaccurate name changes Americans seem to be fond of. Baked enamel, vitreous enamel, & enamelware are common names for this in other countries, and porcelain is the stuff teacups & toilet bowls are made of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitreous_enamel

I'm not meaning to sound rude, but I'm curious. How long have you been an antique dealer?[/quote]


Long enough to tell the difference between enamel and porcelain lol!! Maybe i should be asking how long you been collecting (no offense).. We have several porcelain signs and a porcelain Pure Gas Pump, we also have enamel signs..

Like this one here is enamel.. It weighs as about as much as the Nippers sign which is Porcelain.

[brianu]

Enamel signs is one area of antiques that I know little about, but generally speaking, you will often find repros with varying designs, because either the producer tried to improve the design or make variations so collectors would buy more of their product, or because there was more than one company making them at same or different times.
Victor on the other hand, might order x number of signs & once they were gone, they'd order x number again. Several orders might be placed over x number of years using the same design, & from time to time would have had new "modernised" artwork submitted & produced, and the process would start over again.
I can usually tell a repro from an original enamel sign (or most other things) "when I can handle & examine it in person", but it's very difficult (for me) to judge accurately by looking at a picture alone.
My gut feeling is that this is a repro, but I could very well be wrong. It just doesn't appear to have the quality & detail of an original to me. It looks more like the repro needle tins we see over here on ebay constantly, that come from Asia.
There are some very good repros around these days, because prices of originals have sored, and they are now aware of telltale signs like using thinner enamel & having less weight than originals, so they have rectified obvious problems with the intentions to deceive. They're no longer just a cool looking nostalgic item produced the hang behind the bar, as was generally the case 20 or 30 yrs ago.
But, as I said, I dont have a lot of experience with this type stuff, as I'm far more into general household items than industrial/advertising type things, so I honestly dont know.
I would like to add however, that there are a few guys on this forum that are specialist collectors of Victor & other phonograph "memerabilia" like this, who have been in the game for many years & have personally seen more of these items than we've had hot breakfasts, so if someone like gramophone78 says it's a repro, then I believe it a repro unless proven beyond a shadow of a doubt otherwise.

Even if it is a repro, it doesn't mean it's not collectible, or have some monetry or artistic value. It just means it's not worth as much as an original. If you got it at a good price, it's probably still a good price provided you didn't pay some outlandish price thinking it was good price based on what originals fetch. It's still a good solid item, possibly with some age to it, that quite a few collectors would still be interested in, so there is still a decent market for this kind of thing, just as there is for brand new Nipper salt & pepper shakers.

Mine is not Enamel, it's Porcelain.. They came two sided as well. I can assure you mine is real, i had one of my buddys come in my store today and offer me $900 to take it off my wall, of course i didn't because i like it..

it was kind of you not to rip off your buddy.

[gramophone78]

Normaly I will not entertain a topic beyond helping a fellow member. However, when collectors that have been at it for many years spend the time to do just that and then to see that person go on a well known radio forum and start to tell those members that "all" these signs (originals,etc..) were made in India and sent to the UK is a total lie and insult to us all. You call yourself an antique dealer..........Man,you have a lot to learn.It seems (based on what you wrote on the other forum) that your Dad buys the items and not you.You then asked why one of these "repro" signs sold for $1900??????. Well,I guess they too did not do their homework. I'm glad too that you did not sell it to your "buddy". He would not be a buddy for long. As one of the radio forum members said to you:

"Call me mr grumpy but your threads always seem like classified ads now...members know you have a store..members are talking about wanting to buy sets....and my god you don't know what Bakelite is I don't know just getting to commercial for me....."

One last thing.....the sign is enamel baked on like a porcelian finish. READ BOOKS AND LEARN!!!!!!.

For those that know me. I'm sorry you may have to read this.Just real BS!!!!!..

[Ole Canal Antiques]

After contacting the Rofls i found out that it's from the late 40's to early 50's. Not sure what that means but it certainly means it's not from the 70's or 80's..

[Ole Canal Antiques]

No big deal gramophone, glad you think you know what i buy or how i run my life. I buy what i want when i want. My dad just happened to get to the sign before i did. What's it any of your business what i do anyways? IT'S NOT now that the Rofls have TRUMPED your little theory that my sign is from the 70's what do you have to say about your so called "expertise" on signage? I bet it isn't much now is it!!!