Does anyone know after what numbers the lead in groove exist

[larryh]

I have a number of albums of classical pieces. Some very fine performances will only drop and then the arm will not start into the grooves. Rather frustrating. I am wondering if there is a numerical point in the numbers or codes that will reveal wether they have a lead in groove on the record set or not?

Larry

[Swing Band Heaven]

I don't know the answer to your question i'm afraid, but there might be a way of getting around the issue of no lead in groove. With my automatic electrola it states that if when the pick up is lowered onto the record it doesn't find its own way to the first groove (on records without any lead in groove) then you should higher one end of the machine slightly by placing pieces of cardboard under the feet on one side. I've never had to do this myself - but I wondered if it migh help with your issue?

[larryh]

I don't know if that would work either, it would seem it would place a force against the opposite side of the grooves that on touchy things like LP's might not be beneficial too?

[Swing Band Heaven]

No I agree - not good for LPs! I assumed you were talking about a vintage deck which was for 78's only in which case raising the right hand side of the machine slightly might help as this would encourage the pick up arm to move to the left and the grooves.

I have found on some re-issue sets of earlier records that new lead in and lead out grooves have been added - presumably to cater for new automatic machines. I don't know how common an occurance this was as to date I have only seen that done on Columbia re-issues.

[gregbogantz]

This problem is a result of too high friction in the lateral tonearm bearing. This is common with older and/or less expensive designs, particularly ones that do not use a ball bearing. Modern tonearms with the canted head will normally exhibit "skating" force which will draw the tonearm inward just from the friction of the needle on the record. This skating force can be exessive and will cause distortion when playing stereo records. This is why the "antiskate" feature was included on modern tonearms with good bearings starting around 1965.

But the friction problem was very common with older players. So much so that most old changers actually employed a "kicker" spring that forced the tonearm into the music groove when used with records that did not have a leadin groove. Your player may be operating as it was intended, depending on the tonearm bearing design. If it is a newer player, you might check to see of there is an obvious cause of excessive lateral bearing friction. If it is a new design that includes antiskate compensation, there should be a user adjustment for it. You can reduce the amount of this compensation which will allow the tonearm to skate into the music groove after it lands in the blank leadin area.

[larryh]

I have an Elac 50 H turntable. It works pretty well but has not been serviced and it tends to seem to stick on some records where there is no apparent reason on 45 or LP play. But generally not 78s, although at the end they sometimes don't seem to exit the trip grooves as they should an it will hang up. I am suspicious that it needs to be cleaned an greased no doubt. It does have that anti skating device on it. I tired adjusting the screw for the set down to move it a hair in thinking it might then want to travel on its own to the record groove, but it didn't. That might be out of whack a hair as well since on the 45 adjustment it sat down in the first groove and needed to be turned more that I would have expected before it returned to landing just before the grooves.

[phonojim]

Just from looking through my collection, it appears that Victor began using lead-in grooves around the beginning of the 25000 series, or about the middle of 1935. However, I don't know if any real conclusions can be drawn from this: 25090 has a lead-in groove but 25087 does not. One would probably need to do a study of matrix numbers and issue dates cross-checked with examples of the actual first pressing records to accurately determine the beginning date.

Jim

[larryh]

JIm, Thanks, I should have been a bit clearer, I was really trying to figure out what numerical number of classical sets would perhaps show the before and after of the groove? I did see on the internet that for a while some companies included the lead in and then for some reason went about five years where they discontinued it? I was surprised that set that were sold later were often not upgraded to provide that lead in. It would have seemed that at the time most people were using changers especially when the records were stamped in the drop sequence. It may be some of what was mentioned above that the older players had a tendency to nudge the arm towards the start of the record while the newer light weight balanced arms don't usually do so.

[phonojim]

Sorry, Larry. I guess I missed your point. I don't have very many classical sets anymore, so I can't even speculate about them. I do remember having some Victor sets to which lead-in grooves had been added. Often they (lead-in grooves) were very noisy.

Jim