Strange Victor label variant

[gramophone-georg]

In 50 plus years of collecting, this is the first time I've seen this particular label design. In fact, this entire RECORD is strange. An actual U.S. Victor Batwing, (not a Canadian one), but with the two lines of print from the 1938- mid 41 gold print "non- commercial" verbiage where the "VTMC" info should go, and "RCA MANUFACTURING CO., INC" outside the label border.

To further confuse things... this isn't the 1923-mid 31 eccentric groove, it's the mid- 1931- 40 design with a lead in to the double eccentric. No lead in groove at the rim... no VE stamp, either- it's acoustic! Let me update that- A side DOES have a very faint outer rim lead-in groove... and it's NOT an "add-on" lead in groove like some of the 1940s repressings of 1920s Orthophonics that abruptly scoops the needle into an existing groove... it leads in like a later Victor record of te late 30s.

Did they actually dub early acoustic recordings like these "Gem" series? And why the special Batwing label? Why not just use the label type currently being used like other dubbed recordings and repressings?

Yeah, I guess I am showing my "record geek" tendencies. Somewhere I have a Victor record collector's book, but I can't find it and don't recall seeing this in it.

Any help? This is the kind of stupid stuff that keeps me awake nights.

[Inigo]

Joining there two first things, it narrows the pressing to the 1938-40 period.
Then the strange thing is that they used the old battering style instead of the current circle design. Maybe it was a special nostalgic edition...
The still good lettering also points to pre-1941 pressing.

[ChesterCheetah18]

George, from one "record geek" to another, that's very interesting. Mr. Sherman's book (2nd ed. pg. 112) does discuss that label variant. It appears that RCA Victor was using that label in the early '40s for the very few acoustic records they were still pressing for special order. He also has a photo of a "scarce 1943 pressing" of the same record, although the font is different from yours. I'm guessing it's a rather rare, and interesting variant.

Steve

[gramophone-georg]

George, from one "record geek" to another, that's very interesting. Mr. Sherman's book (2nd ed. pg. 112) does discuss that label variant. It appears that RCA Victor was using that label in the early '40s for the very few acoustic records they were still pressing for special order. He also has a photo of a "scarce 1943 pressing" of the same record, although the font is different from yours. I'm guessing it's a rather rare, and interesting variant.

Steve

Thanks Steve- wish I could find my copy of that damn book...
Interesting that Sherman references a scarce 1943 pressing- the gold print was long gone by then I'd think.

[gramophone-georg]

Inigo- Agree!

[ChesterCheetah18]

George, from one "record geek" to another, that's very interesting. Mr. Sherman's book (2nd ed. pg. 112) does discuss that label variant. It appears that RCA Victor was using that label in the early '40s for the very few acoustic records they were still pressing for special order. He also has a photo of a "scarce 1943 pressing" of the same record, although the font is different from yours. I'm guessing it's a rather rare, and interesting variant.

Steve

Thanks Steve- wish I could find my copy of that damn book...
Interesting that Sherman references a scarce 1943 pressing- the gold print was long gone by then I'd think.

It can be a bit of a conundrum at times, but that to me is half the fun, George. Again, digging into Mr. Sherman's book, I think your copy was pressed prior to late '41. It still has the 1635744 patent number, which was dropped in late '41. The lettering is more vague. In the book, he indicates that "gold" lettering was used from fall of '37 to mid '41, and "brass" lettering used from late '41 to fall of '43. I was always under the impression the silver lettering was introduced shortly before, or just after the end of The War.

Steve

[gramophone-georg]

George, from one "record geek" to another, that's very interesting. Mr. Sherman's book (2nd ed. pg. 112) does discuss that label variant. It appears that RCA Victor was using that label in the early '40s for the very few acoustic records they were still pressing for special order. He also has a photo of a "scarce 1943 pressing" of the same record, although the font is different from yours. I'm guessing it's a rather rare, and interesting variant.

Steve

Thanks Steve- wish I could find my copy of that damn book...
Interesting that Sherman references a scarce 1943 pressing- the gold print was long gone by then I'd think.

It can be a bit of a conundrum at times, but that to me is half the fun, George. Again, digging into Mr. Sherman's book, I think your copy was pressed prior to late '41. It still has the 1635744 patent number, which was dropped in late '41. The lettering is more vague. In the book, he indicates that "gold" lettering was used from fall of '37 to mid '41, and "brass" lettering used from late '41 to fall of '43. I was always under the impression the silver lettering was introduced shortly before, or just after the end of The War.

Steve

Gold lettering seems to have ended somewhere between 27483 and 27500 in the popular series- sometime in late May 1941, and at about the same time for Red Seals. At first, the replacement lettering appeared as a greenish silver but soon morphed to pure silver. I've not seen anything that resembles "brass". It seems the 1635744 patent number was gone by July, and "Victor Needles" was replaced by "RCA Victor Needles" sometime in there as well.

[Governor Flyball]

35386 was recorded in 1914. When the first run out groove was introduced in 1923, you could see how Victor must have cut the groove in the original master. I suspect a daughter pressing had the run out groove added from which the stamper was made.

It looks to me the same process was done to a later daughter pressing in which the later run out was added. The key is to look closely where the run out begins and look for the mating cut. Further evidence it is direct from the master is when the musical selection finishes. Victor generally let the cutter continue in silence for about 8 revolutions. If this records spins an extended time in silence before the run out, that nails it.

A dub of this standard selection would have lost noticable fidelity even by 1940. Hence going back to the master remained necessary. I have an early '50's copy of the 1907 Caruso Vesti la Guibba originally on 88061 and from 1923 on 6000A. The '50's 6000A is clearly a dub detected just by listening to it.

Note that the vinyl Heritage Series of the late '40's included a number of acoustic masters with the later spiral run out and run in grooves added.

[dennis]

Not really sure it applies here, but didn’t the Victor dubs from around 1920 have “s/8” pressed into the dead wax?

[msherman]

Not sure what I can add here to what's already been said, or what I have written in my book, but Victor did use the old batwing style label, or "acoustic circle" as they called it to records sold in the late 30s and early 40s that had been recorded acoustically. Here is an interesting pair - originally recorded 21 Nov 1918, it appeared in Victor's catalogs through 1940. Most records recorded during this period were out of the catalog by 1924, or 1926-27 at the latest. I suppose they saw no need to re-record "Turkey in the Straw" electrically on an accordion. Kinda sounds more like an Edison title anyway...