Early jazz records....58 rpm?

[syncopeter]

I had two takes of a 12" English Columbia record by Edythe Baker, one with, the other without vocal. To keep them in pitch for transferring to minidisc, I had to play them at 80 (the usual speed for a British Columbia of that period) and 78 rpm respectively. Whether they were recorded on the same day and the cutting table warmed up or cooled down or on separate days, I don't know. Matrix and catalog numbers on both records were the same, so there is no way to find out. They were recorded in the same studio with the same set-up and technician though, because after speed correction, the sound is exactly the same. So speed variations in the order of max 4 to 5 percent (a half note) do occur, even within one recording session, but any more is plain nonsense. I've played piano for over 40 years now and can hear when a record is playing at the wrong speed. I've won many a bet when I said that the music was sharp or flat and the owner of the record insisted that there was nothing wrong with his record player. Put on a stroboscope disc and you know whether the turntable is running too slow or too fast. In 9 out of 10 cases I was right.

Peter.

[Swing Band Heaven]

I find it funny that all the record companies used to bang on about the importance of making sure your phonograph turntable revolved at 78rpm yet they didn't seem to have their own house in order in this respect.

[Lenoirstreetguy]

I had two takes of a 12" English Columbia record by Edythe Baker, one with, the other without vocal. To keep them in pitch for transferring to minidisc, I had to play them at 80 (the usual speed for a British Columbia of that period) and 78 rpm respectively. Whether they were recorded on the same day and the cutting table warmed up or cooled down or on separate days, I don't know. Matrix and catalog numbers on both records were the same, so there is no way to find out. They were recorded in the same studio with the same set-up and technician though, because after speed correction, the sound is exactly the same. So speed variations in the order of max 4 to 5 percent (a half note) do occur, even within one recording session, but any more is plain nonsense. I've played piano for over 40 years now and can hear when a record is playing at the wrong speed. I've won many a bet when I said that the music was sharp or flat and the owner of the record insisted that there was nothing wrong with his record player. Put on a stroboscope disc and you know whether the turntable is running too slow or too fast. In 9 out of 10 cases I was right.

Peter.

Well exactly! The speeds were all over the map! And in my Whiteman example we have the keys of the arrangements they used so it's not hard to pitch the playback! And I can tell you , Where the Rainbow Ends plays two semitones sharp at 78. Just sayin'
Until the late twenties the cutter speed divinated by the use of those machinist's tachometers: those little devices that have a spindle that one places on the rotating shaft. One gets a read out on a dial, but the thing is you hold them in your hand and variations of the pressure that you use affects the reading. Plus as I said, the Victor Talking Machine company's lack of oil. Now that said, Edison wasn't bad in this regard, but not perfect either. The dubbed Blue Amberols can be all over the map and even the engineers notes admit slowing the cutter down when they had to dub a long diamnond disc which played longer than the Blue Amberol. HMV seems to have been better than Victor too. HMV stuff is at least within shouting distance of 78, but Columbia was sometimes at 80 and sometimes not. Speeds settle down just about the time that one sees pics of the cutters with stroboscopic markings on the edge of turntable: that is to say about 1930-31 for the recording studios. It's interesting to note that when one sees pics of the Vitaphone cutters there are stroboscopic markings from the earliest days. Of course there accurate speed was vital for synchronization.

Jim

[JHolmesesq]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOzBj1UNKWw[/youtube]

This is a similar video that I found about this. Apparently this poster believes "people couldn't dance to fast music so it was all recorded at a slower pace to allow them to dance with it".

What a load of tripe...

[gramophoneshane]

I find the whole concept of "most recordings during the 1920s were deliberately mastered at about 58 RPM" quite strange.
Do they think all the major labels had a secret meeting with the obscure labels & it was decided that all jazz music was to be recorded around 20rpm slower than everything else they released, and why dont those with vocal refrains sound like the chipmunks?
I dont know if this theory applies strictly to jazz, or if it extends to dance bands, but I cant imagine Bing would still sound like Bing in his Whiteman recordings if he was being played back 20rpm's faster.

[syncopeter]

Bing sang more like a tenor, while he recorded with Whiteman, but he definitely didn't sound like a chipmunk. I've got first-hand information from a friend who knew him well and actually duetted with him, that he preferred to sing as bariton, but within the Rhythm Boys that voice was already taken by Harry Berris.
And the suggestion that their was some kind of secret agreement between companies is utter male cow excrement. They competed with each other on life or death. Also early Vitaphone talkies (dating back to as early as 1925) prove differently.
That society that issued the message is running on its last legs and apparently desperately seeks publicity.

Off-topic, nice Rexonola radiogram. Amazing sound for 1931!

[OrthoFan]

Bing sang more like a tenor, while he recorded with Whiteman, but he definitely didn't sound like a chipmunk. I've got first-hand information from a friend who knew him well and actually duetted with him, that he preferred to sing as bariton, but within the Rhythm Boys that voice was already taken by Harry Berris.

Very true, and Bing's tenor range is also apparent in many of his earlier recordings, made before about 1935. One of the best examples, I think, is his rendition of "Home on the Range":

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VW7-GQUjyY[/youtube]

As for the sweeping generalizations made in the article, since no references were provided to substantiate them, I just look upon the whole thing as "the opinion of one man."

[syncopeter]

I quote, literally, since I remember that story from heart, that Bing did an impromptu performance with the New Paul Whiteman Orchestra: "Chris, you sing my part, you're so much younger than me, I'll sing the baritone one. My voice has dropped quite a bit since the 1920s".
"Home on the range" just illustrates his vocal abilities. Some of the jazz records he did with the likes of Joe Sullivan, Mills Brothers etc show his amazing talent. Perfect timing, huge fun and a voice that never wavers. He developed the 'double breathing technique', enabling him to sing two phrases on one breath, that later became the hallmark of Sinatra and Cole. And how did he do that? By carefully looking and listening to the likes of Armstrong, Goodman and the Dorsey Brothers. Lester Young too was able to play a 16 bar solo on seemingly one breath. Mind you, it was not wihout risk, because if you did it wrong your blood pressure could go through the roof and induce a brain haemorrage. But people were that good back then. They made music like there was no tomorrow.
During a live jazz concert, some years ago, where I was PA-ing, I spoke to the father of a young trombone player. His son was also experimenting with that technique, keeping pressure on your lips, while breathing in through your nose. He was seriously worried that his son would blow his brains out. And he was a qualified physician, so he knew what the risk was.

[Henry]

I quote, literally, since I remember that story from heart, that Bing did an impromptu performance with the New Paul Whiteman Orchestra: "Chris, you sing my part, you're so much younger than me, I'll sing the baritone one. My voice has dropped quite a bit since the 1920s".
"Home on the range" just illustrates his vocal abilities. Some of the jazz records he did with the likes of Joe Sullivan, Mills Brothers etc show his amazing talent. Perfect timing, huge fun and a voice that never wavers. He developed the 'double breathing technique', enabling him to sing two phrases on one breath, that later became the hallmark of Sinatra and Cole. And how did he do that? By carefully looking and listening to the likes of Armstrong, Goodman and the Dorsey Brothers. Lester Young too was able to play a 16 bar solo on seemingly one breath. Mind you, it was not wihout risk, because if you did it wrong your blood pressure could go through the roof and induce a brain haemorrage. But people were that good back then. They made music like there was no tomorrow.
During a live jazz concert, some years ago, where I was PA-ing, I spoke to the father of a young trombone player. His son was also experimenting with that technique, keeping pressure on your lips, while breathing in through your nose. He was seriously worried that his son would blow his brains out. And he was a qualified physician, so he knew what the risk was.

That's called "rotary" or "circular" breathing, and it's been around for a long time. Some players get the hang of it right away, others (like me) never could do it, at least not on my instrument (trombone). I can do it through a soda straw, for example; the technique is to fill your cheeks with air, and expel that air by use of the facial muscles while simultaneously breathing in through the nose. And BTW, brass players today are always taught not to play with pressure on the lips, which is very damaging. The embouchure is controlled by the muscles that ring the mouth, not by pressing back into the lips and teeth. With all due respect to that doctor, I never heard of anybody damaging himself by circular breathing!

Listen to Tommy Dorsey's opening solo on "Marie" to hear how a towering master plans his breathing to carry the phrases through; that one record is worth a lifetime of study! And he made many more of the same quality. Where do you think Sinatra learned his impeccable phrasing?

[syncopeter]

The young trombone player I talked about earlier was strictly forbidden to use circular breathing by his physician father because of the risks involved. Nevertheless he did it, played a sustained note of at least 30 seconds and after that gave a monkey grin to us. We were sitting next to each other, I behind the mixing table smiling broadly, dad with sweaty hands and a huge frown.
Playing jazz means taking risks and here in Holland there is a new generation of musicians who are willing to do that, dressed in baggy jeans with crazy haircuts, but having that same drive that you see in the 1920s and 30s.
Jazz music at the moment outsells rock on CD. We've got at least 50 amateur big bands at the moment, playing arrangements from 1933 to 2011. So there is hope yet.

The jazz concerts I'm telling about attract a big audience of music lovers. Often we had to refuse people because the venue was already filled to capacity. Here in Utrecht we have at least 8 cafés that only play jazz (but quite probably double that amount). 10 Years ago there was none.

Peter.