L - DOOR VICTROLA FIRST-TIMER

[JerryVan]

You might want to explore getting that lid prop from Matt. You could possibly remove the top bracket from his and attach it to your saw-tooth prop, assuming the mount hole spacing is correct.

[AZ*]

When you decide to try and restore the cabinet, you might want to spend some time watching a master antique furniture restoration specialist. Take your time. https://www.youtube.com/@johnsonrestoration

I really don't think this is necessary for Martin. He is already an expert restorer. He posted a thread on the restoration of an Edison Standard 4 years ago, and the results were the best I had ever seen. Unfortunately all the photos Martin re-uploaded in that thread have disappeared once again which seems to be normal for this forum.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35368

[BillH_NJ]

Nice find. The one I have is 6420, so also just a bit earlier. The lid prop is definitely weak compared to the later design and is easy to catch on one of the teeth by mistake if you are trying to lower the lid. I’m not sure why anyone would want or use the intermediate options. I will have to take another look at the rear knob on my machine. It needed a fair amount of cleaning up and the finish on the line isn’t perfect but it came our reasonably well. Somewhere along the way I did acquire an extra motorboard and motor, but not much in the way of other parts. Good luck with it!

Bill

[martinola]

When you decide to try and restore the cabinet, you might want to spend some time watching a master antique furniture restoration specialist. Take your time. https://www.youtube.com/@johnsonrestoration

I really don't think this is necessary for Martin. He is already an expert restorer. He posted a thread on the restoration of an Edison Standard 4 years ago, and the results were the best I had ever seen. Unfortunately all the photos Martin re-uploaded in that thread have disappeared once again which seems to be normal for this forum.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35368

Thanks for the vote of confidence, AZ. While I'm mostly happy with what I've done in the past, each project seems to come out OK in spite of my understanding what I'm doing. It's funny that audiophile mentioned Mr. Johnson's videos. I've watched several of them over the past summer. I can't quite recall how I stumbled onto them (maybe it was on this forum?), but I really do like the way he presents the material, and I mostly agree with his techniques. (He has to make a living doing this and I don't, so I'm much more apt to try something weird to get things to work.) Anyway, it's all useful information to me. Yes, it is a shame that so many of the past photos are gone. (If we could edit the old posts, maybe some of us could re-upload the old photos.) However, nothing is for ever.

@Jerry Van: Your idea about the lid support is a good one. It would be a lot easier to re-rivet a replacement than having to make the part as well. It would be interesting to compare the newer one to the older one. My suspicion is that the newer one might be bigger. It certainly would make the support stronger.

[martinola]

I got a few moments to deal with the VTLA project. Thanks to Matt, Jerry, John and Dan, I’ve got some vital missing pieces. Matt was kind enough to throw in the slightly later style lid support for possible use.

Here are the old and the new:

On the left we have the broken original “saw tooth” style from my machine and the slightly later version that, I suspect, went unchanged for many years. Up close, it’s easy to see why the design changed. They’re both non-magnetic. The break in the old one shows it to be brass. I suspect the newer style is also brass. The main dimentions and screw locations are the same. The thicknesses are different. The old style is 1/16”, the new style is 3/32”. That extra 1/32” of thickness goes a long way to make a sturdier support. I suspect reducing the extra “saw teeth” also accounts for increased strength. The old one certainly has been bent in a few spots.

The old style support has the head of the rivet on the opposite side from the new style, but that could have come from an earlier attempt at a repair (the peened side of the old rivet doesn’t look too neat). Anyway, I’m toying with recreating the broken brass piece and re-riveting it to save the original lid support. I rather like the primitive look of it, but I do acknowledge that the design is inferior. If I chicken out, I’ll use the newer one and keep the older one in the machine in a labelled baggie.

I’m contemplating trying to fix the lid. The veneer on top is missing and the panel boards are warped somewhat. The underside veneer is still holding together with that very delicate early decal. One thought I had was detaching the top panel and attempting to straighten that by itself. That said, I’m not at all sure how that panel is attached in the first place. Does anybody have any experience in disassembling this type of lid? I’m not going to be in a hurry, but I’d appreciate input while I mull over how best to destroy…I mean restore the lid.

[JerryVan]

I'm not saying it's the correct way to go, but I would first try clamping the lid back down to the lid frame, (without glue), to see #1, how much force it takes, and #2, to see how flat the surface of the lid becomes while clamped. If you go this route, place the lid on a firm, flat surface. Lay two long, flat/straight/rigid boards, one across each side of the lid surface. Your clamps should then squeeze the lid between the flat surface you placed the lid on and the two boards laying across the lid's top surface. Leave the space between the two top boards open, so you can see how the lid surface reacts to being clamped. I suspect it will take relatively little force to bring the lid top back flat again. If so, and if it looks good, I'd repeat the steps above, but this time with glue. After gluing, you may need to block sand the lid surface to get rid of any little residual "waviness". Then you should be ready for veneer.

The more I look at your lid photos, the more I wonder if it ever had veneer. The top panel is solid mahogany. It would seem odd for there to be veneer over it.

[martinola]

Hi Jerry.

Thanks for the reply. It really doesn't show in the photos - probably because somebody stained it to hide the damage, but the top of the lid is made up of "cull" boards. There are very heavy diagonal sanding marks that I suspect was used for flattening before applying a top veneer layer. They look very similar to the “mahogany sandwich" that Edison used for the C-19 machine I rescued in about 2006. In that case, the bottom shelf was too far gone to save and I replaced it with Mahogany veneered plywood. Stripped of it's veneer, the old shelf was made up of oak "culls" - many defects, worm-holes and the like.

This VTLA lid seems to be the same construction with the interior part (oak? mahogany?) having the same defects. The interior side is most certainly a veneer and there's a good-sized ripple that passes right through the decal on the other side.. For stability's sake one would want to have a top layer of veneer as well. I'm not saying that's how it was, but I'd just expect it to be so. I also think that the bottom veneer is the only thing holding the boards together at this point.

I'm guessing that when the top got wet and then dried, the internal stresses caused the panel to buckle upwards across the middle and the solid mahogany sides split about ½” below the buckled point. This tells me that the panel was fastened about that point. I was just curious whether it was glue, brads, splines or whatever holding it on. Obviously, clamping would be simpler if I was just worried about a flat plane - especially if I need to add heat and moisture. In the end, however, I suspect I’ll end up doing exactly what you suggest, not wanting to disturb the veneer and decal underneath. I do like the bit about leaving the gap over the cracked area.

[JerryVan]

Hi Jerry.

Thanks for the reply. It really doesn't show in the photos - probably because somebody stained it to hide the damage, but the top of the lid is made up of "cull" boards. There are very heavy diagonal sanding marks that I suspect was used for flattening before applying a top veneer layer. They look very similar to the “mahogany sandwich" that Edison used for the C-19 machine I rescued in about 2006. In that case, the bottom shelf was too far gone to save and I replaced it with Mahogany veneered plywood. Stripped of it's veneer, the old shelf was made up of oak "culls" - many defects, worm-holes and the like.

top grain.jpg

This VTLA lid seems to be the same construction with the interior part (oak? mahogany?) having the same defects. The interior side is most certainly a veneer and there's a good-sized ripple that passes right through the decal on the other side.. For stability's sake one would want to have a top layer of veneer as well. I'm not saying that's how it was, but I'd just expect it to be so. I also think that the bottom veneer is the only thing holding the boards together at this point.

I'm guessing that when the top got wet and then dried, the internal stresses caused the panel to buckle upwards across the middle and the solid mahogany sides split about ½” below the buckled point. This tells me that the panel was fastened about that point. I was just curious whether it was glue, brads, splines or whatever holding it on. Obviously, clamping would be simpler if I was just worried about a flat plane - especially if I need to add heat and moisture. In the end, however, I suspect I’ll end up doing exactly what you suggest, not wanting to disturb the veneer and decal underneath. I do like the bit about leaving the gap over the cracked area.

Ah yes, the close-up photo tells the story: veneered.

[emerson]

An interesting style---the lid prop. I have 2 machines with the saw-tooth design. (1) like yours and the other, if I remember correctly curved. To me, it is a unique feature to have on a machine.

[BillH_NJ]

An interesting style---the lid prop. I have 2 machines with the saw-tooth design. (1) like yours and the other, if I remember correctly curved. To me, it is a unique feature to have on a machine.

While the later design is definitely stronger and easier to use, I still like to have that original prop on my VTLA even if I do have to think twice every time to make sure I don’t let it catch on one of those intermediate positions.

Bill