Stanton's: Review of May 2023 Sale ?

[JerryVan]

My 2 cents...

I'm thinking that the suggestion of reviewing auction lots and sales prices was not meant to suggest that every single lot be reviewed. Perhaps the top 10 or 20? But even so, who will be our appointed reviewer/reporter on-site? To whom shall we grant to power to question the voracity or correctness of the auctioneer in their description of the item? Who will be the one to critique the price paid by the buyer? Who shall it be that points out deficiencies in the item, discouraging the buyer and damaging any resale possibilities? Additionally, if I were a consignor, I may not be pleased with comments made about my former possession and how appropriately I restored it. It may not be the objective of a reviewer to do all of the above, but if they only reported "good news", I suspect that the whole reason for review would be moot. This an auction, not a "show" or "pageant", requiring judgment.

[Skihawx]

I was hoping someone would comment on the interesting Victor VV-XII with the large doors. I'd like to know the story on this one.

[msherman]

To echo what Gregg so correctly stated, Stanton’s descriptions are brief, and they rely on in-person inspection of the lots. Since I compile the APS price guide, I must take great care in using prices realized to determine machine values. For example, the ratchet wind Berliner on Day 3, which hammered at $2,300 (plus buyer’s premium and tax if applicable) seemed quite cheap to me. However, after speaking with a knowledgeable dealer who attended the sale in person, the price was understandable given the number of reproduction parts that were on the machine. The low price of some of the Berliner Trademark machines can be appreciated when one realizes that three of them had the reproduction Japanese reproducers (all numbered J-18425).

Many of the other “upper end” machines had issues which were only evident once the machine was examined closely in-person. Machines like the Alva which brought an impressive $29,000 plus extras shows that when the quality is there, the price will reflect that fact.

I also agree with Jerry in that perhaps only the top dozen or two lots would need any discussion or coverage, so that the task would by no means be insurmountable.

However the real difficulty in the hobby is the lack of a formal grading standard, and independent third-party evaluation. A great deal of expertise is often required to determine reproduction or replacement parts, quality of the restoration and other factors crucial to establishing value. Until such a service is available, auction results will continue to be confusing at times, and obvious care must be exercised when attempting to use them to establish values, particularly for high-end machines.

Mike

[Shawn]

Its hard to write an auction assessment, even covering a small amount of items without causing an issue with someone - seller, auctioneer, new owner, attendees.

However, my assessment is that Stanton's does an outstanding job at pulling together a phonograph auction at least twice every year. That is amazing, and a real service to our hobby!!!

Shawn

[Phono-Phan]

Its hard to write an auction assessment, even covering a small amount of items without causing an issue with someone - seller, auctioneer, new owner, attendees.

However, my assessment is that Stanton's does an outstanding job at pulling together a phonograph auction at least twice every year. That is amazing, and a real service to our hobby!!!

Shawn

I couldn't agree more. I also have to agree with previous posts that onsite inspection is very important if you're seriously considering an item. I have heard horror stories from other auctions where the thumb size picture looks nice but the description didn't reveal no motor inside. I would hate to be an internet bidder based on a small picture and poor description of an item.

[Garret]

Condition issues and descriptions aside, it still seems like prices are generally down?

Garret

[UpstateNYBilly]

I was at the auction for all three days. There were many bargains to be had and then some items that fetched about what you might see at a show or on Ebay or Marketplace. And then there were the very dear pieces that motivated high-end collectors to pay high-end prices. But overall I would say that I thought the bulk of what sold was considerably cheaper than what I had expected. The same handful of dealers, of course, were buying the bulk of the affordable machines and nonchalantly ran the price up on anyone who got into the bidding and was hoping to get a good deal on the same phonograph. But that's the nature of an auction. Every man for himself and the item goes to the last one in.

Lots of V's and II's and III's were available - complete and ready to go. Some cabinet models went for stupid money (i.e. $25 to $50). Amberolas didn't fetch all that much and most were really nice. What surprised me was the kind of money they were getting for record lots of even really ordinary 78's and for boxes of cylinders - particularly the brown wax variety!

For those of us who collect for the sheer love of the hobby and who actually play their machines, the fact that prices are so much more reasonable now for the average collector is GOOD NEWS! I wasn't able to shell out the kind of bucks it would have taken - say even ten years ago - for an Opera or an XVIII and yet I was able to finally get one of each at this auction for what I thought was very doable. I had been in the market for a Columbia AH for a while and the avg price on Ebay or at shows has been around $1500. I got one for $350 of the ten or so that were in the auction.

The tough news for folks that have warehoused machines for years thinking they were going to make their fortune when they liquidated them might not find the downtrend in prices quite as exciting a prospect. But for the youngins in the hobby and the not-so-well-heeled collector who is looking to add some nicer pieces to their collection, interesting and desirable machines are now more within reach and, in my book, that's a good thing! Long may the hobby wave!

[jboger]

Well, UpstateNYBilly, your sentiments are consistent with my observations about the market in general and stated rather bluntly in Post #2 (which I think has upset some people). You are telling me the condition of many of the items was quite good, and that if Stanton prices are indeed low compared with previous years it's not because, rest assured, this year's consignments were somehow of poorer quality than previous years. There are other factors than just condition that drive hammer prices.

It's a wonderful thing to be a long-term collector and watch the market value of your collection increase. It's a terrible thing if the opposite occurs. But such is life. As collectors, the thing to remember is that we primarily collect out of love, not to make a profit. Sure, a profit is nice, no doubt about it, but if you view your collection as an investment--Beanie Babies come to mind--you're probably in for a disappointment. As a consignor, I've both lost and made money. Dems da breaks. Fortunatley I don't need to make a living out of it.

Glad to hear you did so well. And got your AH. It's a nice machine.

John

PS: On a different topic, do you know where Lowville, NY, is?

[Raphael]

I attended all three days and all I can say is that if Steve Stanton worked any harder to put on an auction, he might expire. Even his 96-year-old mother pitches in, it’s a real family operation. He is available by phone right up to auction time, and will go over any questions or issues with prospective absentee bidders. He is 100% truthful and forthright and will never knowingly mislead anybody. But in-person attendance is necessary because everybody has different expectations and one man’s prize is another’s horror. Thus, I think his matter-of-fact, brief descriptions are an acknowledgement of this. He is virtually the only auctioneer in the world that I trust 100%, but it’s still my responsibility to go in person to inspect the stuff.

Raphael

[jboger]

No auctioneer has any long-term impact on the market; it is something outside his or her control. Perhaps there is an exception, the very, very high-end auction houses, and by that I mean Christie's and Sotheby's. They are catering to a well-heeled market and have been known to bend a few international laws, for example sneaking artwork out of Italy to sell in London where a better price might be realized. I'm sure Stanton's is doing an excellent job. In fact I bought things from them a few years ago and have no complaints. And wasn't it Stanton's that did not collect a fee from a consignor for a newly discovered Class M a few years ago? (Or was that a different auction house?) In any case, any comments here about the market do not in any way reflect poorly on Stanton's. I think they do a service to the community.

So let me give my opinion as to what generally drives auction prices, and it's not the 15% or sales tax that almost everyone pays and factors into (or should) before they bid. I can not single out any one factor like condition and say it dominates the hammer price. That doesn't explain the two guys who I saw battle it out for a barrister's bookcase a few years ago. The hammer price exceeded what I could have paid at a local antique store. Antique furniture is way down, a mere fraction of what items sold for ten or 15 years ago. I've seen mid 19th C drop leaf tables either not sell or sell for a mere $5, if that. You couldn't buy the wood in Home Depot for the hammer prices. Twenty-thirty years ago an ordinary drop-leaf table would sell for around $125. Nor does any single factor explain why one week some collectible sells for $5 and next week a similar item sells for $50. (Yes, I know that small differences between collectibles that may not be noted by the uninitiated can drive prices, but that's not what I mean here.) I went to an auction of a tree nursery this past Sunday that was shutting down. Two guys battled it out for hydrangeas and paid double what one could buy them for at another tree nursery.

Over the years I've seen the same item (and I mean the same item) get sold more than once often at widely different prices, usually lower as time goes by. There can be many reasons why: supply is greater than thought; demand has dropped because there are no new collectors; the item is of local interest only; or the idiosyncrasies of individual collectors. Right now so-called Mid-Century Modern furniture and household goods (sunburst clocks in avocado green) bring fantastic prices. Coffee tables and chairs sell for hundreds of dollars. Star Wars collectibles even sell for thousands, especially if new-in-box. I say, give it a few years and prices will drop dramatically for these items once the generation interested in these items has moved from center stage. Prices will go the way they did for Depression glass, which back in the 1980s brought phenomenal prices. Now you can buy whole sets for a few dollars.

Now, no disrespect to anyone. What's that old saying about gentlemen of good will can disagree? OK. I just can't agree with the statement that if something sells for a low price there is almost always a good reason that in some way points back to the piece itself. If prices are low, the quality is not good; if prices are high, the quality is good. This suggests that the phonograph market is stable. This idea seems to have been heartily endorsed by a number of forum members. Why? Given the number of consignors, I highly doubt this year's consignments were of any less quality than those from previous years.

Well, that's my opinion. And anyone and everyone can tell me I'm totally wrong. If you do, just tell me why. I am more than glad to change a wrong opinion.

John

(This is the longest post I've ever made.)