Are cheap gramophones worth buying ?

[poodling around]

This is the most compelling argument put forward yet in this thread for why "cheap" gramophones are simply not worth buying! The definition of cheap here refers more to the quality as price otherwise dictates whether it is worth buying on a case by case basis depending on condition.

So for me at least, a cheap gramophone might be worth buying if it's in perfect condition but not a recognised make and has some interesting features or possibly has a well made cabinet. If it's a wreck, I'll happily pass as I believe we've entered the time when the gramophone market has shrunk considerably, rendering lesser known makes even less desirable than they've always been. Most collectors who are still actively buying appear to want the very best machines in the best condition. Everything else is secondary or of little interest and the prices reflect this. Space is at a premium for most of us so don't waste it!

As for whether high quality products are worth buying when cheap that too will come down to condition and completeness. A machine that is unlikely to be completed due to scarcity of parts is not cheap, it's just dead money tied up in a never-to-be-realised project. Poor condition higher quality items have to be viewed and judged carefully. If you're someone who wants to restore your gramophones then it might be worth it for the satisfaction of doing that alone but you have to remember the value will be diminished when you decide to sell.

Whilst most of us are not dealers and collect primarily for the satisfaction the ownership provides, I believe more than ever before we have to consider what will happen to these gramophones when we're all gone! The collecting market is a fraction of what it was 30 years ago. Most of the high quality items will hopefully find new homes but much of it will end up in landfill including the majority of these "cheap" gramophones, whether lovingly restored and brought back from the dead, or not!

Yeah, you say that but if you ever go to an auction and come across a poor little no brand table-top gramophone, with a broken spring, torn cloth turn-table and no winder, a sound-box with a concrete hard gasket and "Please help me steve" etched into the blown out aluminium diaphragm even you would not be so cold hearted as to leave it to 'skiptum' ! You are just not that guy !

Is this a test? If so, please tempt me with something and we'll see how cold hearted I am these days!

The scenario above would be an easy pass for me anyway. Broken spring? Pass. No winder? Pass.

Ha ha !

[poodling around]

My take on cheap/worthless gramos:
They can be transformed into something special, since it doesn't hurt to mess around with them for a project.

I was given an absolutely trashed Outing portable that was beyond restoring to original and even if complete, wasn't worth much. I also had a Cliftophone tonearm and reproducer that had been lying around for years with no purpose and an old violin. So, during Covid I needed to find something to do and not wanting to go anywhere, I decided to go to my garage and look around. I found the Outing neglected under a pile of stuff and decided to check it out. Even though it was junk, it surprised me how strong and quiet it ran. I had some left over quarter sawn oak lumber to construct a case and decided to start a project...

So, I decided to make a replica of a phonograph I always wanted to find - a French Le Palmodian with a violin on top. I found that most of the ones found on the internet are replicas anyway, so no harm trying to build one.

Here is the result:


IMG_0209-LePalmodian.JPG


IMG_0556-LePalmodian.JPG


IMG_0756-LePalmodian.JPG


IMG_0900-LePalmodian.JPG


IMG_1388-LePalmodian.JPG


IMG_2541-LePalmodian.JPG

This is truely amazing Curt. The components are great quality.

Fantastic reading about the back-ground to this as well !

I would praise it more but I think Lah Ca's comments are too hard to beat !

Do you have a youtube video of this to see I wonder ?

[Curt A]

"Wow! Nice job.
It looks like something out of a Salvador Dali painting. You should have it posing with a lobster and a melting clock."

Not sure whether that's a positive comment, or not...

Here's an original from 1919...

[Curt A]

"Your 'sari' joke was very good ! One day I will use it as my own ! "

I think Brenda Lee said it best (I'm Sari):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGLR25EJtfE

[Inigo]

Nice Palmodian replica... and the violin support... and counterweight, all very clever. Why don't you make s video of it playing?

[Curt A]

I plan to make a video, but it hasn't happened yet... However, it does play surprisingly well. The counterweight offsets and balances the violin so that there is no more (probably less) pressure on the needle than a conventional tonearm and reproducer. It can be adjusted by rotating the brass ball either direction - an improvement over the original.

[Hoodoo]

Curt,
Regarding the Palmodian replica, do you keep the violin tuned, or does string tension make no difference?
How about the sound post position?
Just wondering.
Nice work, by the way.

[Curt A]

Tuning doesn't really make a difference, since the violin functions as an acoustic resonator. There is tension on the strings to keep the bridge from loosening, but I don't think it affects the sound quality. The original Palmodians had the "f" holes enlarged for enhanced volume because the needle mount was just a metal yoke. Since I had that odd Cliftophone reproducer, that plays in normal, lateral mode face down - I used it as a needle mount which provides additional volume through an aluminum diaphragm.

[Lah Ca]

Tuning doesn't really make a difference, since the violin functions as an acoustic resonator.

The Palmodian (original and replica) is interesting.

Theoretically, if the strings are taut and hold some pitch (as opposed to being relatively slack and not really intoning if plucked or bowed) there should be some sympathetic resonance in response to the reproducer, which would/should give a bit of choral dissonance warmth like a piano with the sustain pedal pressed.

It is also curious that the back of a violin is more of a reflective surface than are resonant one. It is the spruce top that resonates--it is like the diaphragm in a reproducer with the bridge functioning like the needle bar and the strings like the needle. Ideally, although I cannot see how this could be arranged, the reproducer should stimulate the top of the violin and not the back.

How loud are these machines?

[Lah Ca]

Here is one in action.

Original?

Nice sounding if slightly thin.

https://youtu.be/Nw-njdniBsM?si=Jy5eshAz5bd33sgW