HMV 163

[CharliePhono]

I have an opportunity to purchase an HMV 163 gramophone. It's a nearly six-hour drive one way. Back is missing, but other than that appears complete. Soundbox housing has a crack in it. Asking price is $300. Does this sound like a good deal? I'm thinking these machines rarely turn up in the States, and certainly not within a day's drive of me in California. I haven't seen it yet, but am proposing to drive down this weekend. Goose chase or goldmine?

[Jwb88]

I’m not far away and I’d probably get it if I didn’t already have one. Great machines. Pretty heavy due to the metal horn. This one looks like it has replacement grille cloth, wrong knobs, crank knob is wrong or entire crank is wrong, etc. But certainly nice cabinet condition overall.

I’d get it if I didn’t have one. After years of focusing on these superb HMV machines, I have very little room left. If you don’t have a credenza, or if you appreciate the beautiful English Oak cabinet/Jacobean aesthetic, go get it!

[Inigo]

Just get sure the horn is inside... All the other parts are easy to get, except the horn. If the machine is complete the price is good... although you can always negotiate a bit...

[CarlosV]

The HMV163 is a good machine, the English counterpart of the US Victor Credenza, with about the same sound quality. I would not mind about the defect in the soundbox, they are easily available in the UK, you can import one 5a or 5b in good condition. As Iñigo mentioned, just make sure that the horn is inside. These machines when in good condition are sold in the UK for about twice that price, but probably you would spend something in the order of $200 to fix the missing back and get replacement soundbox, knob and cloth, so you can use this argument to haggle with the seller.

[CharliePhono]

Thanks, fellows, for the replies. Yes, the horn is present (see photo). I'm having difficulty getting the seller to respond, but it is a holiday week, after all.

I actually do have a wonderful early Victor Credenza, in tip-top condition, and which plays beautifully; however, I've always been led to believe the metal horns are far superior to the wooden orthophonic horns of Victor products. Is this not so?

Thanks again!

[OrthoFan]

...... I've always been led to believe the metal horns are far superior to the wooden orthophonic horns of Victor products. Is this not so?
Thanks again!

I don't think the metal version of the horn is "far superior," just different. Comparing the HMV 163 to the Victor Credenza or 8-30, the two horns are the same length -- 6 feet, including the tonearm -- and both follow the same exponential curve, which means they both have a reproduction range of about 100-5,000 cycles per second.

Where an as-found 163 might have an advantage is due to the fact that its all-metal tone chamber is more likely to be air tight compared to an as-found Orthophonic horn, which may have degraded over the years due to wood shrinkage, gaps between the seams, etc..

Based on what I've heard, comparing an Orthophonic Credenza with a restored tone chamber to an HMV 163, they both had about the same sonic range, but the 163 sounded "brighter" in terms of treble output, and was less directional. The Credenza had a somewhat softer treble, but a more solid sounding mid-range and bass. Overall, it sounded more mellow--more like an electrically amplified radio or phonograph of the period.

It's also important to note that there are sound quality differences between the HMV 5A sound box (normally found on the 163) and the Orthophonic (5) sound box used on the Credenza. Based on what I've heard, comparing the two sound boxes on an HMV 102 portable, the Victor Orthophonic sound box was the overall winner--louder with an more expanded sound quality, especially in the mid-range.

Where there would be an improvement, in terms of sound superiority, would be with the larger HMV Re-Entrant Exponential horn gramophones, such as the HMV 194/193 models which were fitted with a 7 (7.5?) foot horn, or the models 203/202 which had 9 foot tone chambers. These models extend the bass range considerably.

OrthoFan

[Orchorsol]

Good luck Charlie, hope you get it!

[CharliePhono]

Thank you, OrthoFan, for that excellent treatise/explanation of the differences and similarities between the Victor and HMV horns. I appreciate it!

I contacted the seller with a question regarding the missing back of the 163, and the reply was "sorry, don't have it." I immediately sent another email (this was yesterday) proposing a time/date to inspect the machine and have not received a reply. I seem to feel somehow I won't receive one. As many of you know, Craigslist listings and their posters can sometimes be hinky at best. Thus, Andy, it's not looking good, but I thank you for the encouragement.

But hey, at least I have my Credenza, which I am very pleased with.

Thanks again, folks!

CharlieP

[CarlosV]

Thank you, OrthoFan, for that excellent treatise/explanation of the differences and similarities between the Victor and HMV horns. I appreciate it!

I agree with OrthoFan's detailed explanation - I have both a Credenza and a 202, and I have heard a 163 live a number of times. The main differentiator between the 163 and the Credenza is the soundbox, and as OrthoFan mentioned, the Victor orthophonic is superior. Actually I use the English counterpart of the orthophonic, the HMV 5, in my 202 - the machine was fitted originally with such soundbox, which was afterwards replaced with the 5a.

[CharliePhono]

As Uncle Josh might have said, "Well sir, I reckon it warn't to be." I can't raise the seller through the Craigslist email system (only means of contact), so I will not be buying the machine. Here's the link if anyone wants to take a look: https://inlandempire.craigslist.org/atq ... 31016.html.

I do appreciate the feedback from everyone! Happy Thanksgiving!

CharlieP