Roberts Bestone Portable Motor and Crank?

[Lah Ca]

I don't think that the Bestone machine motor is a Garrard. I did not open it to check, as the motor is working and it seems quite difficult to access, but all Garrard motors I am aware of have threaded cranks.

It is a Garrad 3 motor in mine. I had a look. However, it does not seem to be entirely stock, as I have not yet found another Garrad 3 on which the spindle, together with a washer, screws on to hold the platter in place.

[Curt A]

Making an attractive substitute crank is not a problem. If you find a similar threaded crank, making it into a slotted crank is easy.

[Lah Ca]

Making an attractive substitute crank is not a problem. If you find a similar threaded crank, making it into a slotted crank is easy.

Thanks.

I am hoping that the crank will be something fairly generic. There were a lot of Garrad 3 motors made I would guess, a popular unit for portables. The picture of the model 3 on member Chunny's website does not appear to show a threaded socket for the crank.

https://www.gramophonemuseum.com/garrard-2-3-4-9-8.html

Enlarged Detail:

It will be a relatively simple task to transform any suitably sized bit of metal rod into a functional slotted crank and, as you say, an even easier task to adapt a suitable threaded crank.

[Oedipus]

The No. 3 is one of the least common Garrard motors. Whether it always had that unusual slotted winder, or whether that was peculiar to the Roberts Bestone, I don't know, but it makes sense for a portable machine to have a winder that can be quickly inserted or removed. Roberts were ten years ahead of HMV in that respect! There were three models of the Bestone portable, A, B and C. A came in blue rexine, B in cowhide and C in crocodile-grained hide. I have never seen a C, but B also had a longer horn (the tone-arm is mounted on the right rather than the left), and a Garrard No 9 motor. The winder in this case is also non-threaded, but is female with spiral dogs on the end, a more conventional arrangement than the slotted male end of the No. 3 motor.

I will attach two photos, showing the winder from a Bestone Model B, which is earlier than most Garrard winders, with the knob held by a visible ended pin rivetted into a ball on the end of the crank. The other is a normal, later Garrard crank formed from a single rod with a hidden retainer inside the wood knob. I am sorry I cannot show the slotted winder from my Model A -- it is missing, and I am grateful for the diagram of one, though the diameter of 0.7 cm puzzles me; being English, the real dimensions of these winders were Imperial, and the standard Garrard winder shown is 5/16 inch, which equates more to 8 mm than 7. It is a perfect fit in the Mode A's escutcheon, so I assume the original, slotted winder, was also 5/16-in. The thread on the normal Garrard winders incidentally, is BSF - 22 tpi on the 5/16 size.

Both the Bestone and the Garrard No. 3 motor were introduced in 1921.

[Lah Ca]

The No. 3 is one of the least common Garrard motors. Whether it always had that unusual slotted winder, or whether that was peculiar to the Roberts Bestone, I don't know, but it makes sense for a portable machine to have a winder that can be quickly inserted or removed. Roberts were ten years ahead of HMV in that respect! There were three models of the Bestone portable, A, B and C. A came in blue rexine, B in cowhide and C in crocodile-grained hide. I have never seen a C, but B also had a longer horn (the tone-arm is mounted on the right rather than the left), and a Garrard No 9 motor. The winder in this case is also non-threaded, but is female with spiral dogs on the end, a more conventional arrangement than the slotted male end of the No. 3 motor.

I will attach two photos, showing the winder from a Bestone Model B, which is earlier than most Garrard winders, with the knob held by a visible ended pin rivetted into a ball on the end of the crank. The other is a normal, later Garrard crank formed from a single rod with a hidden retainer inside the wood knob. I am sorry I cannot show the slotted winder from my Model A -- it is missing, and I am grateful for the diagram of one, though the diameter of 0.7 cm puzzles me; being English, the real dimensions of these winders were Imperial, and the standard Garrard winder shown is 5/16 inch, which equates more to 8 mm than 7. It is a perfect fit in the Mode A's escutcheon, so I assume the original, slotted winder, was also 5/16-in. The thread on the normal Garrard winders incidentally, is BSF - 22 tpi on the 5/16 size.

Both the Bestone and the Garrard No. 3 motor were introduced in 1921.

Thank you for the detailed and highly informative reply.

My Bestone would seem to be a model B in cow hide and with the longer horn and the right mounted tone arm. But it has a Garrad motor with a large number 3 stamped on it.

See earlier pre-purchase and post-purchase discussion with photos here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=56694&start=10

As with many products out of smaller workshop factories of the era, the general designation into models (in this case A, B, C) may hold, but the features within those model groups may not be consistent or may overlap. In the thread above there is a picture of a short horn, left tone arm mount machine in what appears to be cow hide.

CarlosV, who helpfully posted the photo and diagram of his crank, is from Belgium (I believe), and the ruler he has at hand is metric, of course. So the approximate measurements he provides are metric, too.

[Oedipus]

You are right, the model designations refer to the case, not to the technical specs. I will attach (if I remember, I forgot last time) a scan of a 1923 ad which shows Model B with the extended horn -- it was this that made me think the longer horn was part of Model B, but further investigation has produced an ad from a year earlier, in which all three models have the short horn. Ads don't tell us about the motors, beyond that they are Garrard. The change in design must have occurred between April 1922 and March 1923, probably in the Autumn of 1922, which was when most new models appeared. The change of motor involved a redesign of the aluminium frame

Looking at your previous post, that bag in the lid is original, and presumably for storing the sound box. Mine has nowhere for the winder, either, which is why it's missing! Both mine have serial numbers stamped on the aluminium frame, under the front of the turntable; 1715 for the earlier one and 2767 on the later (long horn) one, which happens to be a B, with a No 9 motor and winder clips in the lid.

Winder pics now added.

[Lah Ca]

I will attach (if I remember, I forgot last time) a scan of a 1923 ad which shows Model B with the extended horn -- it was this that made me think the longer horn was part of Model B, but further investigation has produced an ad from a year earlier, in which all three models have the short horn. Ads don't tell us about the motors, beyond that they are Garrard. The change in design must have occurred between April 1922 and March 1923, probably in the Autumn of 1922, which was when

Very cool. Thanks. You are an oasis of information in a bit of a desert.

I am reasonably certain from the Cunard label attached that my Bestone machine left Liverpool on April 20th, 1924. Whether the woman who owned the machine was immigrating to Canada or returning to Canada is unknown at present. If she were returning to Canada the machine might have been a purchase made during her visit, which would fit with the 1922/23 date for changes in construction. Mine might be an early model, still using the pouch and the Garrard 3 motor.

Looking at your previous post, that bag in the lid is original, and presumably for storing the sound box.

Initially I thought it wasn't original because its fabric was in much better condition than the lining and because I had not found a picture of another Bestone machine with a bag. Also the leather strap, slightly pleated bag, and fancy bead/button seemed very typical of Vancouver Island late-60s to mid-70s Hippy craftwork. So I initially assumed that it was an addition to hide a missing crank clip. But when I had a chance to examine things more carefully in better light, it was obvious that it was original, same cloth, same stitch work.

I don't know about storing the sound box in the pouch. The sound box on my machine is secured quite firmly with a fairly large set screw. Unless one packed a flat blade screw driver around, one would not be removing the sound box regularly.

Mine has nowhere for the winder, either, which is why it's missing!

With my machine, there is some evidence from wear on the velvet inside the lid, down behind the horn on the right side inside the lid that the end of the winder once rested there, probably fairly firmly behind the horn. The position of the leather strap on the pouch would then be in about the right place to go over the arm of the winder. Perhaps this is how the winder was stored.

I know from seeing another video on EMGExpert's Youtube channel that on the left mount tone arm models the winder rested at the back of the motor board on the bracket for the tone arm rest and was held in place there by the clip on the tone arm. I will post a screen shot later.

2023-11-25 14.33.53 www.youtube.com c08ede7db181.jpg (13.11 KiB) Viewed 870 times

This style of storing the winder is not possible with the right mount tone arm models.

Winder pics now added.

Many thanks. I will need to extract the motor on mine to have a good look down into the socket for the winder. If mine takes a slotted crank, a threaded crank like the one in your picture could easily be adapted, assuming the shaft is long enough.

[Oedipus]

Many thanks in turn. I did just that yesterday -- extracted the motor-- and filed a slot in the end of the threaded winder in the photo. It was barely long enough, so I made the slot quite shallow, and left the threaded section intact. It works! But when I took the motor out, I found jammed under the 'drip tray' beneath it a winder -- not original, but a home-made adaptation of a Swiss -type winder with an extension piece.

That way of housing the winder in the clip that takes the wire on the tone-arm does work on mine, though it looks a bit cumbersome. Certainly better than jamming it under the motor, where records are supposed to be stored. I share your doubts about the pouch taking the sound box -- perhaps it was for putting needle tins in.

[CarlosV]

CarlosV, who helpfully posted the photo and diagram of his crank, is from Belgium (I believe), and the ruler he has at hand is metric, of course. So the approximate measurements he provides are metric, too.

I think you asked for metric measurements in one of your posts, Lah Ca. As you rightfully understood, any measurement with a ruler, be it metric or imperial, has to be approximate. And I am very familiar with differences between metric and imperial units, despite Oedipus's rant about the inaccuracies of the measurements I provided: maybe he was expecting me to provide a factory blueprint of the crank. Sorry to frustrate his expectations.

I am from Luxembourg, not Belgium.

On the discussion about the place to store the crank, my machine is leather covered and has a leather ring inside to accommodate it.

[Lah Ca]

I am from Luxembourg, not Belgium.

My apologies. I should have been less specific, from Europe, or more accurately specific, from Luxembourg. I was in a hurry and did not go back to check.

I think you asked for metric measurements in one of your posts, Lah Ca.

Yes. I am to blame for the misunderstanding here. Noting that you are European (and have a scientifically sensible system or measurements ), I did not think you would have (or have much use for) Imperial measuring devices. I assumed that you would have a metric ruler, which would give me a good approximation of sizes. I am Canadian. We are confused, living in a Metric/Imperial limbo--officially a metric country but also unofficially not. Most of my measuring devices are dual scale.

As you rightfully understood, any measurement with a ruler, be it metric or imperial, has to be approximate. And I am very familiar with differences between metric and imperial units, despite Oedipus's rant about the inaccuracies of the measurements I provided: maybe he was expecting me to provide a factory blueprint of the crank. Sorry to frustrate his expectations.

I think Oedipus was merely surprised/perplexed at the metric measurements given. I don't think he intended any insult. My fault again.

On the discussion about the place to store the crank, my machine is leather covered and has a leather ring inside to accommodate it.

Thanks. I have also seen models with what appears to be a leather scabbard sewn into the edge of the lid. Was there ever any standard method of crank/winder mounting for Bestone?