Diamond Disc vs Needle-type takes

[coyote]

The following is only my anecdotal information. Someone with more knowledge than I have is welcome to correct these observations.

While the literature maintains that the Edison lateral cut "Needle-type" takes were recorded simultaneously with the vertical cut Diamond Discs, I find it hard to confirm with takes on both formats (see a possible reason in the next paragraph). I can, however, state that it appears that the take letters on the two formats are NOT the same take. That is to say, take "B" on the Diamond Disc will most likely NOT be the same take as "B" on the needle-type. One example is Birmingham Bertha, B.A. Rolfe with Vaugn DeLeath vocals. I can confirm that the Diamond Disc (matrix 19219-B) is NOT the same as take B on the needle type (N923-B). Granted, observing variations of takes is much easier with vocals or those selections with a few "free-form" improvisational bars (common on Edison takes) as opposed to straight orchestra-only selections without any brief improv section.

Muddying this observation, it seems that only ONE take (out of three) of an Electric Diamond Disc was usually ever issued. However, most of the time two or even all of the three takes of the same session on lateral "needle-type" discs were issued for sale. I presume that the lateral and vertical takes WERE recorded at the same time, as one could not expect (and pay) musicians used to the usual Edison procedure of three takes of a selection on any one date to suddenly perform SIX. However, it's a mystery as to why the take letters do not necessarily appear to refer to the same take on both formats.

I find these particular minutiae fascinating and would research it further if I could, other than direct observation. Any theories or input would kindly be appreciated.

[Marc Hildebrant]

Interesting material.

I was able to have "Button Up your Overcoat", Golden Gate Orchestra, as a stereo recording. One channel from the vertical recording, and one from the lateral recording.
Needed some work with time offsets, but both together sounded very nice.

Both recordings were from the same Sesson, as a close match is not possible unless it's the same "take". People vary the way they play the song each time they perform.

Marc

[coyote]

I was able to have "Button Up your Overcoat", Golden Gate Orchestra, as a stereo recording. One channel from the vertical recording, and one from the lateral recording.
Needed some work with time offsets, but both together sounded very nice.

That's wonderful. This is exactly what I attempted to do with a few selections, but could never keep the two in sync, even if the offset worked for the first minute or so. Someone with more time and expertise than I should combine the two in this manner!

[Marc Hildebrant]

Coyote

I used the software from Diamond Cut Productions, DCart11 is the current model.

Took a while, but it can be done.

Marc

[coyote]

I used the software from Diamond Cut Productions, DCart11 is the current model.

Thanks, Marc.

Another observation arose when comparing what DAHR lists as issued takes with my collection.

While DAHR is fairly accurate, there are enough inaccuracies to not take the information as gospel. I'm sure the source records kept at the ENHP were not always complete or accurate.

Of the 85 lateral matrices in my collection (uneven number explained shortly), 8 have takes that are listed as "test pressing exists" or "unknown" in DAHR. While this is a very small number, I still think the discrepancies are interesting. All of these unissued (according to DAHR) takes occur after the disc listed below.

The odd number of matrices comes from a nonstandard coupling of 14005, of which I have two copies. One is as expected, with matrices N925 and N870, while on the other, N868 is in place of N870. DAHR doesn't list N868 as having been issued at all, but rather four "test pressing exists" masters across two sessions (six takes total). Very interesting. Perhaps this is related to the 11049/14007 anomaly which I posted here.

Also from DAHR, most of the early lateral cuts (with label numbers in the 11xxx series, before the 14xxx numbering) have a "lateral sample" listed, most often with an unknown take associated with them. What were these sample discs?

[Lah Ca]

Interesting material.

I was able to have "Button Up your Overcoat", Golden Gate Orchestra, as a stereo recording. One channel from the vertical recording, and one from the lateral recording.
Needed some work with time offsets, but both together sounded very nice.

Both recordings were from the same Sesson, as a close match is not possible unless it's the same "take". People vary the way they play the song each time they perform.

Marc

This is the ABBA technique. All tracks (as in tape tracks) instruments and vocals are recorded twice and then mixed together. It gives an interesting effect.

The producer working with ZZ Top when they were recording La Grange wanted something special for the guitar solo so he told Billy Gibbons to keep it relatively simple so that he could play it again. After the first track of the solo was recorded, the producer went up to Gibbon's guitar and started randomly pulling strings out away from the neck with some force so as to put the guitar subtly out of tune. Then he had Gibbons do the solo again. There is the choral dissonance from the slightly out of tune guitar and there are the slight differences between the two takes that all compound to give the solo its sound.

[Marc Hildebrant]

Lah Cha

Not sure that I understand you.

I used a separate recording for left side, Diamond Disc and then a separate recording for the right side, lateral.

I did not mix one recording with the other.

Marc

[Lah Ca]

Lah Cha

Not sure that I understand you.

I used a separate recording for left side, Diamond Disc and then a separate recording for the right side, lateral.

I did not mix one recording with the other.

Marc

The effect will be the same to your ears. Things will be slightly out of synch. Human beings are quite random and can never play the same thing twice exactly the same.