A serious question on a sensitive topic

[Raphael]

I must confess that I am harboring a coon song in my house. About 5 years ago I acquired a Rosenfield-Columbia AZ coin-op with an original poster of “Songs of the Ragtime Boy”. A member of this forum supplied me with the correct, matching cylinder. I’ve played that cylinder only once and stored it away. I don’t feel that it is something that I am proud of, or happy with, but am not going to destroy it, either.

My own belief is that true non-racists are often ignorant of what offends others. I was brought up in black neighborhoods, had a black stepmother, and although I have never used the n-word, other euphemisms come to mind and I probably have used them in the past, but with the benefit of age and changing times no longer do. I’m comfortable with the new standards and do not long for the “good old days”.

A few years ago I was at the Detroit airport, checking in a car at 4:30 AM, in freezing cold (-10 degree) weather. The AVIS lot was all screwed up, and following the return cones simply lead you back to the entrance. I finally abandoned the car right outside the office and went in to complain. A black man came to the counter and proceeded to berate me for my parking. I said nothing because, mainly he was black and thought that if my temper got the best of me, oh boy, am I going to get in trouble. Maybe that was reverse racism, I dunno. But right after my demurral, a black man walked in, same problem, and got the same ration of crap from the counter man. What happened next was one for the books, the customer unloaded on him, using every expletive known to man, with the N-word mixed in throughout. It was hilarious. Then, when we got on the bus, the black bus driver turned to us and said “How’s your day going?”, and my fellow passenger unloaded on him even further. Then when things settled down, he explained to me that he is a successful businessman with houses in Chicago, Detroit and Miami, and because he’s black, others of his race automatically look down on him.

Different times, different norms. I may remove the Ragtime Boy poster and cylinder from the AZ and give it to a friend who is donating his huge collection to a museum. Or I might die first, and that solves that problem for me, haha.

Raphael

[phonogal]

I have been collecting phonographs and phonograph related items for 40 plus years, not only because I find it a fascinating and enjoyable hobby, but I also want to preserve them in the hope that someone else will enjoy them long after I'm gone. It is all history, good and bad. I would not presume to tell you what you should do or not do with your own property in your own home as that is your business, not mine. I play the cylinders that I enjoy listening to and store the rest. I will continue to enjoy this hobby.

[Ortho4-7]

The argument that it was “acceptable back then” and that we “shouldn’t judge them by today’s standards” prompted me to do some research. Disregarding the fact that that argument is better used in defense of spray tans or bell-bottoms as opposed to historic racism, it falls flat once you discover that these songs were heavily criticized for being racist as early as 1899:

And again in 1905:

And 1909…

(From “The Indianapolis Freeman”, an early black-owned newspaper:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... page&hl=en)

So much for that argument!

As for me personally, I refuse to ever own such things, and I consider myself lucky to have not come across any in my 13 years of (on and off) collecting. If I were to come across any in a blind record lot purchase, I’d probably sell them immediately, donate the proceeds to charity, and ship them in a bubble mailer. Or just throw them out. Either way, there ain’t no way they’d be staying in my house.

[travisgreyfox]

Wait a second...Are we all just going to pretend like George didn't just tell us he KNEW Jeffrey Dahmer? Then we all just kept the previous conversation going!?

[phonogal]

Interesting information that some "coon songs" and reportedly the first one was/were composed by black composers. The article also references "Rag" music. Just as today with black rap musicians that use words in their lyrics that are offensive to blacks and whites alike. I bet we can find articles saying rap songs need to be banned. Remember Elvis and his lewd rock & roll? Many found it wicked & offensive. I have listened to some of the "coon song" cylinders and yes, I too find them offensive but, I just don't play them. I don't believe there is a single thing left in this world that is not offensive to somebody. I will not, however, call you names or insinuate that you are an awful person if you have a different opinion than I do, it's just that, your opinion. Enjoy listening too, storing, selling or donating your records.

[Django]

Well, that didn’t take long. As I said..

In my decades in this hobby I’ve come across plenty of people who try to use “historical artifact” as a protective smokescreen for old racist stuff.



Nobody said anything about destroying anything.

But we preserve these for what purpose, exactly?

Put examples in museums alongside your confederate and nazi memorabilia and kkk robes and statues of racist insurrectionists, and don’t delude yourself into believing that you are a caretaker of some perverse sacred history for future generations. The contents of Jeffrey Dahmer’s fridge were also historically important, but have they been carefully preserved for future generations, too?

I get what you are saying. I don’t seek or play this offense racist propaganda, but in a time when politicians claim that the USA was never racist, this is one more piece of evidence that proves that it was mainstream, (unfortunately, in Orwellian style, there are those that choose an alternative reality).

In these days of Holocaust denial, insane conspiracy theories, QAnon, people that only want a “patriotic” and pro-white version of history taught and people that can watch the violent invasion of our Capital and still deny the truth about it, I believe that the indisputable evidence should be preserved, disgusting as it is. I don’t know if the Library of Congress accepts donations or if they have a way to preserve them, but some record of their existence has value. https://www.loc.gov/programs/national-r ... ding-list/

My opinion on this does not extend to things like statues that are erected as a tribute to racists, (another brought that topic into the conversation). Those monuments that were displayed in public places to intimidate certain ethnic groups, to defend the South’s “Lost Cause “ argument, to stand up for Jim Crow laws and in opposition of civil rights should be removed from their public locations, but preserved and kept as an educational tool with a clear explanation telling the dark motives behind their existence, or maybe just documented, labeled describing their true intent and melted down and put to a better use.

[stetam]

Wow some really "woke" folks on here. White supremacy card huh?

[Django]

Wow some really "woke" folks on here. White supremacy card huh?

Yeah, I guess that I am “woke”, (as opposed to unawakened and indifferent to racial injustice). I find it sad that some will “out” themselves as being anti-woke and not feel some shame in that. A sign of the times and that we have not really evolved. If my choices were to be called “woke” or to be called “racist”, I will be glad to be called woke.

I can’t do anything for someone that denies that racism is on the rise and that it once again has a strong voice in our government, or that slavery was a crime against humanity and that the primary cause of the Civil War was to preserve slavery. You don’t have to look very hard to find the existence of white supremacists. Systemic racism is real, slavery was real and people that don’t want this history taught in a realistic manner because it makes them feel bad probably should feel bad. What I can do is refuse to remain silent.

This forum has for the most part been a politically neutral place, despite some of the offensive content on recordings. I am glad that this topic was brought up.

Some, (probably most), “Tin Pan Alley” music for example was racist, but music that includes people of color is not necessarily racist. An example would be “Hello Ma Baby”. The sheet music cover art shows well dressed middle class presumably African American people using some of the most modern technology available. The lyrics use the term “darkie” once, but not in a targeted manner. The thing that interests me is the relationship being over the telephone and the fact that today, this is still happening in chat rooms on computers. But the majority of the Tin Pan Alley songs are extremely derogatory in their lyrics and the cover art. Each song should probably be evaluated on it’s own merits, but if it labels itself as a coon song, then it has already crossed the line.

[stetam]

There are just as many back racists as there are white racists. And I guess you feel reparations to blacks is warranted?

[An Balores]

Some, (probably most), “Tin Pan Alley” music for example was racist, but music that includes people of color is not necessarily racist. An example would be “Hello Ma Baby”. The sheet music cover art shows well dressed middle class presumably African American people using some of the most modern technology available. The lyrics use the term “darkie” once, but not in a targeted manner. The thing that interests me is the relationship being over the telephone and the fact that today, this is still happening in chat rooms on computers. But the majority of the Tin Pan Alley songs are extremely derogatory in their lyrics and the cover art. Each song should probably be evaluated on it’s own merits, but if it labels itself as a coon song, then it has already crossed the line.

Surely "the majority of Tin Pan Alley songs" are nothing more than variations on the theme of love?