Is this a pristine brass backed No.4?? And what Date is this unmarked 101?

[EdgarFB]

Hi all,

I've just picked up another 101 and I'm really please with the condition. Very, very fresh Early(ish?) with a 410 motor. It was quite hard to get the motor board up because, I now realise, I was the first person to do so and it was still stuck down to the original felt. The motor runs perfectly, plays through the whole record and is almost silent (although I am planning to service and re-grease the spring any way). It really feels like its hardly been used since it was built.

Two questions!

Is this a brass backed No.4? Its hard to tell as it's in mint condition so almost no metal showing anywhere... it sounds amazing, probably more to do with the diaphragms condition.

Why does this 101 have no data plate... and no sign it ever did? The motorboard is flawless, the best I've seen so I think there would be some faint trace somewhere if it had lost one.

Really chuffed with this one!

[CharliePhono]

Hi Edgar,

I don't know if this is "gospel" or not, but I was told that if the soundbox had a flush isolator (as opposed to being proud of the surface of the back plate) that it was a brass one. Again, I don't know if this is a rule of thumb or a generalisation, but, again, this is what I've been told regarding brass vs. pot metal. Your soundbox is identical to the one on my 101, which, like yours, is devoid of an auto brake, and I presume that makes it an earlier iteration of the 101. Others will surely weigh in, but this is what I was told a long time ago with respect to the soundboxes. As well, mine has no ivorine ID badge on the motor board.

[EdgarFB]

Hi Edgar,

I don't know if this is "gospel" or not, but I was told that if the soundbox had a flush isolator (as opposed to being proud of the surface of the back plate) that it was a brass one. Again, I don't know if this is a rule of thumb or a generalisation, but, again, this is what I've been told regarding brass vs. pot metal. Your soundbox is identical to the one on my 101, which, like yours, is devoid of an auto brake, and I presume that makes it an earlier iteration of the 101. Others will surely weigh in, but this is what I was told a long time ago with respect to the soundboxes. As well, mine is devoid of an ivorine ID badge on the motor board.

I've had a couple of 101s over the years, all pre-auto brake... but I think still slightly later than this one. The motor is a different model (the others had the enclosed 59 Motor) and the carry strap is a different design, again my other 101s had a strap similar to my 102. This one also doesn't have the tin holder at the back, but a weird rectangular slot instead. Not early enough for a front winding handle though, but subtly different to my others I've owned.

[epigramophone]

I have found the type of rubber isolator to be a reliable indicator of whether the back is brass or pot metal.
101's did not acquire the circular Ivorine ID plaque until 1928. Your machine is earlier.
The rectangular slot on the tonearm rail is designed to hold a tin of Tungstyle needles.

[EdgarFB]

I have found the type of rubber isolator to be a reliable indicator of whether the back is brass or pot metal.
101's did not acquire the circular Ivorine ID plaque until 1928. Your machine is earlier.
The rectangular slot on the tonearm rail is designed to hold a tin of Tungstyle needles.

1. I have another on the way, also with the same flat rubber without a lip... but I'm pretty sure from the photos I've seen its pot metal. Will confirm when it arrives. I think this one is brass from the tiny, tiny glint on the edge, but the paint is so perfect I'm not about to scratch it to find out!

Does anyone know / can anyone find out the weights of the two types? They should be significantly different if one is a lump of solid brass.

2. So I guess this could be called an intermediate then, not as early as the front winder, but pre- 1928... which I think makes it 1926/27

3. ahh so it just slots end down into the hole? I don't have a tungstyle tin so had no idea how big they are. I have other brands of flat tin but they are all much too wide to go in such a small slot (they do fit in the later upright tungstyle clips though).

[poodling around]

As you can see from this previous thread, the type of rubber isolator is not an something that can be relied upon entirely to show whether the back is brass or pot metal.

I thought one of mine was brass but it was pot-metal and broke.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=56530&hilit=pot+metal

[EdgarFB]

As you can see from this previous thread, the type of rubber isolator is not an something that can be relied upon entirely to show whether the back is brass or pot metal.

I thought one of mine was brass but it was pot-metal and broke.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=56530&hilit=pot+metal

Yes, I'm fairly sure the other rimless isolator No4 I have on the way is pot metal. I'll weigh the two and compare them. The tiny glints at the edge of this do look like brass but there is so little to work with as the paint and barely worn anywhere! Maybe I'll see if a screw can be loosened later for a peek at what the thread is made from.

That thread brings me hope though as the machine is pre 1928 and I suspect its the original soundbox.

[jamiegramo]

It sounds a bit obvious but use a jewellers loop to inspect the edge where the metal is showing through the black finish. Compare with a silver coloured metal in good daylight. You won’t need to remove any more of the surface to reveal more metal.

I’m always using a loop when testing jewellery so as to file as little of the metal as necessary.

[EdgarFB]

Well the second No4 just arrived... and I take it back, I think this one is brass too

AGain, pristing condition paint so nothing to see on the back, but! This little glimmer can be seen through the hole where the tone arm sits.

Both soundboxes nearly identical weight (150g) so I think both very nice brass boxes.

[leels1]

I don’t think that no 4 is THE earliest though. I think the ones with the writing on the front of the backplate, behind the diaphragm pre-date the writing on the back. The former are all brass I believe.

That perhaps dates your machine to 1927?