Edison Diamond disc machines in the UK?

[TD421298]

Hello there!
This is my first thread outside of comments and private messages on others peoples' etc. I've been pondering the last couple of months whether anyone sells Edison Diamond Disc machines within the UK. I've looked around but every single one I have found is located in America. I have heard that the Edison Diamond Disc machines are among the best sounding acoustic / mechanical machines ever made. If anyone has any info on this, I'd love to hear from you.

[JerryVan]

Hello there!
I have heard that the Edison Diamond Disc machines are among the best sounding acoustic / mechanical machines ever made.

I'd say that might be stretching things a bit.

I too am wondering to what extent Diamond Disc machines were marketed in the UK.

[Steve]

They were certainly sold here and do come up for sale from time to time but they don't tend to fetch a lot, presumably because they are designed to play special records which are next to impossible to find in the wild.

In terms of sound reproduction they are acceptable for the period they were made but the best? I certainly wouldn't say so, as they were considered to be one of the lesser machines of the time.

[CarlosV]

As Steve mentioned, the Edison machines were commercialized in the UK - I believe it was the only European market where Edison sold these machines and respective records, and you can find them for sale today. Table tops are more common, there is even a model named London, but some cabinet machines like the laboratory models can also be found. I even bought my Schubert in the UK, albeit it is a rarity there and it came from a unique collection (Roger Thorne). There are however some challenges with these machines which may explain Steve's (and other collectors') impression that their quality of reproduction is not good:

- The first is to find diamond discs in good condition - most I have found in the UK were in bad shape, with some exceptions
- A new diamond stylus is required (expensive but in most cases necessary)
- A newly-made diaphragm makes a huge improvement in the reproduction (all vintage diaphragms made with lacquered rice paper deteriorated and became brittle with age)

With a new needle, a new diaphragm AND a record in good condition (all the nice ones I have I imported from the US), the quality of reproduction is excellent, certainly up to a par with the competitors of the acoustic period. Electrically recorded diamond discs are not very good, though: Edison adopted this technology much later than the competitors, and his engineers did not master the recording with microphones as Victor and Columbia.

[epigramophone]

Although introduced in the USA before 1914, the Diamond Disc machines and records did not go on sale in the UK until 1919/20, by which time the lateral cut "78" almost completely dominated the market. Other factors also contributed to poor sales, including their high prices and the variable quality of the discs. When they are good they are very good, but some suffer from excessive surface noise. It is said that this was a consequence of having to find alternatives to Phenolic Resin when Edison's regular supplies from Germany were interrupted during WW1.

I have never owned, or wanted to own, a Diamond Disc machine. Owning one would result in yet another format to collect in addition to the machines which play my 78's, Blue Amberol cylinders and Pathé discs.

[Morell1]

Many are beautiful, well-made machines. My interest in them has waned, however, because the records aren't readily available (as others have noted.) The catalogue was never as extensive as the catalogues of companies producing lateral-cut records. My favorite genres are especially poorly represented in the Diamond Disc catalog.

[Steve]

Just to add to the well reasoned points Carlos has already made, I agree that many of these machines when played today "as found" will probably not sound very good due to the issues given.

However, my comment about sound reproduction was more in response to an article I read in The Gramophone from the early 20s when the DD machine was compared to many other contemporary machines in one of its famous "listening tests". Put simply, the Expert committee was not overly impressed.

I do not collect phonographs so there is a notable absence of the brand, Edison, in my collection. As the DD machine is a flat record playing system ie. not a phonograph, and similar to a Pathéphone using Hillandale cut records, I might have been tempted to buy one if a good example turned up locally. However, that is about as likely as Santa Claus knocking on my door today asking for my Christmas wish list in advance!

I might have one DD in my record collection somewhere but they are scarce items to find in the wild. One question I have which I'm sure Edison experts can answer for me is whether a DD machine can safely play any other Hillandale records without damage to either the record or machine? I'm thinking about the possibility of playing Pathé records in particular, of which I have many.

[CarlosV]

One question I have which I'm sure Edison experts can answer for me is whether a DD machine can safely play any other Hillandale records without damage to either the record or machine? I'm thinking about the possibility of playing Pathé records in particular, of which I have many.

Unfortunately, no, Steve. The diamond disc machine arms are screw-driven, i.e., their movement is not controlled by the groove, they move at a fixed pace, so they only play records that have a single groove pitch (same concept as Edison cylinder machines). The groove pitch for diamond discs is much denser than the normal Pathé records: 10-inch diamond discs play for up to 4.5 minutes, compared to 3 minutes for Pathés of the same size. This also makes the diamond disc stylus to be much finer than the sapphire that plays Pathé records, it is designed to track finer grooves than the Pathé. The Edison machines can play lateral discs with an adapter soundbox, that has a ball connection to provide lateral freedom of movement that allows the needle to track the groove, but as far as I know there were no such adapters made to play Pathé records.

[anchorman]

I have not looked closely at the adapters, but it wouldn’t be difficult to make one to play Pathé discs on an Edison machine. I’m not sure why you’d want to, though. In general the Edison machines are well built, and they can sound really great,nbut IMHO, the horns are somewhat limiting, being relatively small compared to what they really should have been to get truly great sound.

I know of only one Edison machine in the UK, located at a friend’s place in Canterbury. I’m sure there are others, but in all my looking at and looking for phonographs in the UK, I’ve only ever come across that one example.

The biggest problem for Edison machines, is the selection of music available. Most of it is really nothing I’d want to listen to. Edison controlled everything that was recorded on his records, and had recorded what he liked. I can’t say that he had very interesting or broad taste in music. Here and there you find some gems, but nothing remotely exciting to me.

[Steve]

One question I have which I'm sure Edison experts can answer for me is whether a DD machine can safely play any other Hillandale records without damage to either the record or machine? I'm thinking about the possibility of playing Pathé records in particular, of which I have many.

Unfortunately, no, Steve. The diamond disc machine arms are screw-driven, i.e., their movement is not controlled by the groove, they move at a fixed pace, so they only play records that have a single groove pitch (same concept as Edison cylinder machines). The groove pitch for diamond discs is much denser than the normal Pathé records: 10-inch diamond discs play for up to 4.5 minutes, compared to 3 minutes for Pathés of the same size. This also makes the diamond disc stylus to be much finer than the sapphire that plays Pathé records, it is designed to track finer grooves than the Pathé. The Edison machines can play lateral discs with an adapter soundbox, that has a ball connection to provide lateral freedom of movement that allows the needle to track the groove, but as far as I know there were no such adapters made to play Pathé records.

Thank you, Carlos, for this illuminating and detailed reply. I suspected this might be the case but really wasn't certain. I think I'm beginning to understand why Diamond Disc machines almost have to be given away here in the UK when they infrequently come up for sale. I'm sure in other countries where there are more Diamond Discs available and the machines are in a far better state of preservation that they will command a much higher price and sound very good, relative to the obvious limitations.