Concert Reproducer too high causing skipping

[danohallaron]

Concert 5" wax can vary in thickness, probably due to shaving, or shrinkage due to temp changes over the years. And my first Concert is properly adjusted but has skipped along on thinner records since I bought it.

I now have a second Concert. So, today I swapped reproducers, carriages and records in several combinations. At this point I can say that the problem is with the machine, and not the reproducer or carriage, as all problems continued with the machine regardless of the swapped parts. It also seems clear that the reproducer does not drop low enough between the carriage arm and the straight edge. So, has anyone ever come across this with any machine? It would seem that I either need to file down the carriage or straight edge so the reproducer can drop just a touch more. Thoughts?

[phonogfp]

I've read of this problem, and apparently it's a common one. I've never encountered it on my Concert, but I know I haven't played all my 5-inch cylinders on it either. This isn't a problem with Columbia Grand machines.

I wouldn't make any non-reversible changes to your Concert's upper casting, nor would I recommend modifying the carriage unless you have a spare. Ideally, you could get a reproduction carriage to modify, but since Jean-Paul Agnard stopped making them I don't believe any are currently available.

I guess my advice would be to acquire a Columbia Grand Graphophone (there are several types) so you can play the "problem" records.

George P.

[Inigo]

The problem can be pointed to the stylus not descending all what it's needed? Or is it another obstruction? The retaining pin or the safety hook striking it, in the reproducer, can be slightly modified to allow for more room for the stylus to descend 1mm more?
(Brain storming from a cylinder ignorant...)

[JerryVan]

As a result of your testing and parts swaps, I think we can say that the problem is not that the reproducer is too high, but instead, that the mandrel is too low. How closely adjusted are your mandrel end bearings? If the end bearings are adjusted with too much clearance, they will allow the mandrel shaft to drop. With the endgate closed, there should be almost zero end play in the mandrel. You might also inspect the end bearings for wear. Are the tapered ends worn down on one side, where they bear the weight of the mandrel?

[FellowCollector]

Dan, May I ask what you are using for a reproducer in your Edison Concert phonographs? I have three Edison Concert phonographs and have never had a problem with any of them playing Concert/Grand size cylinders. Well, I take that back... I have never been able to play my Lambert Concert cylinder correctly on any of them. But that's a problem with the Lambert cylinder - not the phonographs. Anyway, pictures (or better yet a video clip or both) might be helpful. I ONLY use Edison model B reproducers in my Edison Concert phonographs. With all of the Edison Automatic reproducers I have and have used on any of my early Edison cylinder phonographs I've never found a single Edison Automatic that plays worth a darn (sorry). On the other hand, I've never found an Edison model B that I have rebuilt and used that has been disappointing. If you've tried using a good Edison model B reproducer in your Concert phonograph and you're still having troubles with the stylus not contacting the cylinder surface correctly then let us have a look at what you're seeing. I bet we can help you figure it out.

Doug

[danohallaron]

Doug, I'm using B's on both Concerts. Swapped all of the possibilities around and problem stayed with the machine. George P, Thank you for the suggestion. I do have another Concert right next to this one that plays the thinner wax just fine. However, I have no objection to a Grand lol. Jerry, Thank you. I did play with the mandrel bearing but it didn't change things enough. Finally, Inigo.... I have actually thought of lengthing the limit on the reproducer. Wyatt could certainly hook that up. And it would likely solve the problem. Just not sure I want to change the reproducer. I do have a video of it, but don't think I can post it here.

So, going with George P's info, it sounds like I'm not alone. I do know from castings on other machines that I have had to modify that they can warp a bit (specifically thinking of the D repeater casting I had to file down and the Opera gear cover I had to trim a little). Maybe that's the issue.

Not inclined to file down the straight edge, as it has the # stamped into it. Probably more inclined to trim the bottom of the Carriage arm, as it wouldn't take much to resolve. At the moment, I'll leave it be and look for another Carriage to mess with, especially since I have another Concert for the thinner wax.

Thanks to all for the great info. Dan

[JerryVan]

If it were mine, I'd be inclined to make new end bearings with eccentric ends, in order to raise the mandrel. That would not modify any original parts. Of course, it may depend upon how much it needs to be raised.

[danohallaron]

If it were mine, I'd be inclined to make new end bearings with eccentric ends, in order to raise the mandrel. That would not modify any original parts. Of course, it may depend upon how much it needs to be raised.

What a novel idea. And I know somebody who could do that! It only needs to come up a whisker or two, if that's an appropriate scientific measurement.

[Inigo]

;D

[Yamaphone]

I just checked the diameter of my Concert and Grand cylinders. I took a length of belting material about 18 inches long and wrapped it around the cylinder and let the ends of the belting pass each other. If you mark where the start of one end passes the other end, you can now lay the belt against a rule and get the circumference of the cylinder. (convert fractions to decimals) Dividing the circumference by pi (3.141) will give the diameter of the cylinder. The distance from the center of the record to where the stylus will contact the record will be one half that amount. The Edison records that I measured (maybe 6) were all 5 inches OD or slightly more. The Columbia Grand cylinders that I tested (maybe 5) were up to an eighth of a inch smaller (4-⅞") OD. So the Columbia record surface is 1/16" lower from the reproducer. When I play the Edison records on an Edison machine, the stylus has the usual mid range of travel. When I tried the smallest OD Columbia cylinder on the Edison machine, it did play but the stylus barely touched the wax surface. Other records may be even smaller.
Even Edison machines must have some manufacturing tolerances and the problem might show up on one machine and not another but again, the stylus barely reached the wax of the Columbia cylinder.
Dan Z.