Orthophonic on a VV-100?

[RiderK]

Having not personally tested the differences in the Victor soundboxes myself, I’m inclined to experiment and experience the differences myself. As I sit here enjoying and testing out a group of 50 random 78’s I received for $50 I realize I now have a fair amount of electronically recorded discs. With a soft tone needle they can still be a bit harsh on the highs. Granted I do need to rebuild my No.2 soundbox and those parts should finally get here in a few days, but I’ve read enough about their limitations in regards to electronically recorded discs. This leads me to studying the No.4 as what others have claimed as a middle ground soundbox for acoustic and electro recorded discs. It also makes me curious as to how an Orthophonic would sound on my VV-100. A post on here from 2017 has someone claiming that if I used a No.2 isolator in the orthophonic then it would fit the tone arm of my VV-100. I’m curious if anyone has done this and what their sound experience was or is. I realize my tone arm is very acoustically different than an orthophonic and maybe it would sound horrific. Maybe wait until I find a decent No.4 that’s not cracked and withered away. Just curious my friends.

[JerryVan]

Maybe wait until I find a decent No.4 that’s not cracked and withered away. Just curious my friends.

Not all no. 4's are pot metal. Look for an all brass version.

[52089]

There are other posts on this topic. Here's one example:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18024&hilit=+orthophonic+exhibition

[OrthoFan]

Once overhauled with fresh soft gaskets, and adjusted properly, the #2 sound box should be less shrill, especially when using soft tone needles, and easier on all your records. There are a few YouTube videos showing how to properly rebuild a #2 sound box, for instance -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJf0-Vu0Ixs

A sound box designed to play electrically recorded records, such as the #4, will make the records sound somewhat better--more mellow--as would a restored Orthophonic or similar sound box equipped with a tonearm adapter. But, due to the VV-100's tonearm and horn's non-exponential design, it will not give you the full bodied tone you'll get from a properly restored Orthophonic Victrola. Even the portable Orthophonic VV-2-55 would be a vast improvement.

Shortly after I started out in the hobby--nearly 50 years ago--I owned a number of electrically recorded records that I used to play on my VV-80, which had a rebuilt #2 sound box. They sounded okay to my ears until I heard some of them played on a friend's Consolette--the smallest Orthophonic upright. At that point I wanted to go home and throw rocks at my VV-80, and my hobby interests became fixed on the Orthophonic Era models.

BTW, I have experimented fitting an Orthophonic sound box to an older style Victor tonearm--specifically, my Vic. V. Even though it's equipped with a large "morning glory" style horn, it's no match for my midsize Orthophonic VV-4-40.

OrthoFan

[Damfino59]

Your #2 reproducer hasn’t yet been refreshed with new gaskets or mica. So it’ll sound a bit harsh. Especially with later 78’s of the 1930’s-40’s-50’s.

The VV-100 came out late in the acoustic era. So it’ll sound more balanced with acoustically recorded discs.

Just remember those later recordings have more energy inscribed in those grooves. Do your rebuild on the #2 and go from there.

Here are two examples of sound boxes from my collection.

Here is an example of the older rebuilt exhibition sound box on a Victrola XI. Playing an acoustic hot jazz type recording.

https://youtu.be/Y8zpwXBQf9k?si=L5jOy7tyt6iK8g1y

Here is an example of a orthophonic style sound box on a HMV 194, a British version of the Orthophonic Victrola. Playing a late 1920’s electric recording. Both recorded a while ago with my old digital camera. So they won’t be up to the digital quality we have currently.

https://youtu.be/UhgYIuqHsQ4?si=bm7MSF0aGlVmGvYO

From what you’ve mentioned on your work with multiple speed truck transmissions, you’ll have no problems with fixing issues on these mechanical antiques.

Have fun!

Glenn

[streetmechanic14]

It seems useful to me to draw finer distinctions instead of including 78's from the 1930's to the 1950's in a single category. As I think I've said before, Tommy Dorsey and Benny Goodman scroll-Victors (1935-37) sound so good on a properly adjusted Orthophonic that it's tough for me to imagine anybody being unhappy with the experience. By the time we get to, say, 1941-42... not so good; a 1949 Stan Kenton Capitol played acoustically is an excruciating experience. That same Capitol played on a 1947 triode Capehart is amazing- Capitol's recording technology must have been some of the best in the world at the time, but definitely not intended for playback with 1920's equipment. I don't think I've ever tried playing a mid-50's rock-and-roll 78 on a Credenza... I can only imagine the results would be worse still. All of which is to say that 78 recording technique 1930 to 1958 may cover too much territory to be usefully lumped together.

[Inigo]

I've been using for months the European equivalent to the victrola VI tabletop with a hmv no5b soundbox, equivalent to the orthophonic, and although the sound system is short and not exponential, it was a large improvement over the exhibition, as the sound is much more open and balanced, more natural, even with acoustic recordings. With electricals, the treble comes out more clear and detailed, and the sound is overall good.

[RiderK]

Once overhauled with fresh soft gaskets, and adjusted properly, the #2 sound box should be less shrill, especially when using soft tone needles, and easier on all your records. There are a few YouTube videos showing how to properly rebuild a #2 sound box, for instance -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJf0-Vu0Ixs

A sound box designed to play electrically recorded records, such as the #4, will make the records sound somewhat better--more mellow--as would a restored Orthophonic or similar sound box equipped with a tonearm adapter. But, due to the VV-100's tonearm and horn's non-exponential design, it will not give you the full bodied tone you'll get from a properly restored Orthophonic Victrola. Even the portable Orthophonic VV-2-55 would be a vast improvement.

Shortly after I started out in the hobby--nearly 50 years ago--I owned a number of electrically recorded records that I used to play on my VV-80, which had a rebuilt #2 sound box. They sounded okay to my ears until I heard some of them played on a friend's Consolette--the smallest Orthophonic upright. At that point I wanted to go home and throw rocks at my VV-80, and my hobby interests became fixed on the Orthophonic Era models.

BTW, I have experimented fitting an Orthophonic sound box to an older style Victor tonearm--specifically, my Vic. V. Even though it's equipped with a large "morning glory" style horn, it's no match for my midsize Orthophonic VV-4-40.

OrthoFan

Thanks for the explanations and I agree. My parts are supposed to be here tonight so I’ll rebuild that this evening and see how she does. Believe me I’m definitely not opposed to owning Ortho stuff in the future. Actually I’d like to have multiple example of acoustic, ortho, and electric. It’s not that I need these old machines to become absolute Audiphile systems hahaha. I would be to even attempt such a thing. The experimentation factor is what drives me sometimes. I do have a a fairly nice but modest “audiophile” 2 channel stereo system comprised of a PS Audio pre-amp, Marantz SACD player, and JBL Studio 590 towers. For me it’s quite an audio treat with clarity, imaging, and reality. Many people have much better than I but I appreciate what it does for me. What I’m saying is I’m not trying to pull absurd standards from my Victrola. I just love to tinker and find what best for it.

[Inigo]

That's the funny side of it. My back connectors of hmv no4 and 5b, of both sizes, one for the earlier narrow tonearms and the other for the orthophonic line of machines, were hard as rock and were discarded years ago. A relevant detail is that the back neck of the soundbox plate is identical in both types. I acquired two new connectors of corresponding sizes, made for the Meltrope soundboxes, which are pure simple soft red rubber cylinders. THe inner diameter changes, but the outer diameter is the same. And it matches the back neck size of these soundboxes. They fit marvelously snug on the back neck, and are interchangeable, so you can use either soundbox on narrow or wide tonearms indistincly. Secondly, it allows to adjust the playing angle of the needle with the record. This is possible because these are plain rubber cylinders, with no brass insert nor locking pin, so the angle can be varied at will; an advantage for maintaining a good tracking when you use needles of different lengths, as it happens for instance when using handmade bamboo needles, or if you want to reduce playing volume using longer needles.

[RiderK]

That's the funny side of it. My back connectors of hmv no4 and 5b, of both sizes, one for the earlier narrow tonearms and the other for the orthophonic line of machines, were hard as rock and were discarded years ago. A relevant detail is that the back neck of the soundbox plate is identical in both types. I acquired two new connectors of corresponding sizes, made for the Meltrope soundboxes, which are pure simple soft red rubber cylinders. THe inner diameter changes, but the outer diameter is the same. And it matches the back neck size of these soundboxes. They fit marvelously snug on the back neck, and are interchangeable, so you can use either soundbox on narrow or wide tonearms indistincly. Secondly, it allows to adjust the playing angle of the needle with the record. This is possible because these are plain rubber cylinders, with no brass insert nor locking pin, so the angle can be varied at will; an advantage for maintaining a good tracking when you use needles of different lengths, as it happens for instance when using handmade bamboo needles, or if you want to reduce playing volume using longer needles.

Hmmmm, that’s interesting. I appreciate the heads up. I’ll definitely be on the lookout for some other soundboxes to keep handy with my VV-100. I may have to stall a bit seeing as I’m brain is already moving towards getting a few more phonographs to use with their intended discs. I can tell my finance, but we have so many records that were designed around orthophonic….so we need actually need an ortho . Hahaha, she knows the game and would laugh. But if I find nothing in my price range that I was soon then I most likely will go ahead and scrounge up a few soundboxes. Damfino got me ortho daydreaming now.