HMV461 for auction

[epigramophone]

A pre-sale estimate of £80/£120 is auction speak for "We have no idea", and look where they have placed the soundbox.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auct ... 00d880b2b2

[Steve]

I think the estimate is perhaps a little high to be honest. The finish appears to have been wrecked by someone but the 461 is not much of a highly sought after item, anymore than most other internal horn table grand models are. It's essentially a re-purposed Lumiere case and the lid can't be closed when playing. It's hardly a 511 either. I agree about the needle placement though; it's become a worrying trend away from the safe hands of the gramophone cognoscenti.

[JerryVan]

That needle placement trend makes me crazy. Even if a person had never seen a phonograph before, why would they assume this is the proper position? It seems soooo counterintuitive!

[jamiegramo]

It seems that the non cognoscenti will more likely get it wrong. I’ve always assumed because in many cases, like the HMV461, they only have to move tonearm a few inches from the rest position to the edge of the record. To play the record correctly involves moving the tonearm at least 12 inches. With a horn machine this rule doesn’t so easily apply.

[Lah Ca]

Apart from the blotchy finish, it seems an elegantly handsome machine in its stylistic simplicity.

Still it appears to be a slightly odd machine, fitting into a market slot where it would compete with good quality portables which would offer greater versatility of use with similar sound and performance quality.

https://youtu.be/mDhUhKwM8_0?si=j7LX2KRFSzT1rj18

I would assume that the 461 is moderately rare since the sales figures seem not to have been particularly high.

A post comparing the 460 Luminere with the 461, information contained lifted from His Masters Gramophone by Brian Oakley and Christopher Proudfoot:

https://www.collectorsweekly.com/storie ... v-461-1926

460 Lumiére Oak original sales total 867 with 484 of these returned to the factory. Mahogany sales were 877 with 223 returned to the factory.
461 sales were 615 oak and 618 mahogany.

information from His Masters Gramophone by Brian Oakley and Christopher Proudfoo

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[CarlosV]

I like the HMV 461, despite being a rework of another design it is well done and with high quality parts and finish. Its sound is better than portables, especially if you add a piece of card at the exit of the horn, folded forward to replicate the 101 record holder, that acts like a deflector. The deceased (and infamous to some) colonel showed that in one of his videos, and it indeed improves the projection of the sound. The major drawback of this machine is its size, larger even than the contemporary table tops, and the fact that it requires a stand: at the end it occupies the same space as 460, that has a more elegant design with or without the Lumière diaphragm. In any case, as you show, neither model attracted the buyers of their time. It is odd that the sales were so poor, as these machines today are not rare, every now and then one shows up for sale.

[epigramophone]

It is odd that the sales were so poor, as these machines today are not rare, every now and then one shows up for sale.

Because they were expensive when new, their owners may have been less inclined to scrap them when they became obsolete.

[CarlosV]

It is odd that the sales were so poor, as these machines today are not rare, every now and then one shows up for sale.

Because they were expensive when new, their owners may have been less inclined to scrap them when they became obsolete.

Yes, these machines could easily be stored in an attic.

[Steve]

It is odd that the sales were so poor, as these machines today are not rare, every now and then one shows up for sale.

Because they were expensive when new, their owners may have been less inclined to scrap them when they became obsolete.

Yes, these machines could easily be stored in an attic.

Or even more likely, an outside shed or outbuilding where tins of paint could be conveniently stacked on top. I've lost count of how many 460/461's I've seen with multiple rusty ring marks on the top showing through a stripped down, sanded surface that invariably someone has later "restored" with a clear coat of varnish that makes it even worse.