Haydn, Symphony No. 13, G Major, Krauss?

[Lah Ca]

I am looking for definitive information on this recording, Haydn, Symphony No. 13 in G Major, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Clemens Krauss, released on three 10" disks.

Label tags: His Masters Voice, Victor, VE, Orthophonic Recording

Catalog numbers 4189 to 4191.

The label illustrated here immediately below is from the Victor Talking Machine Co of Japan.

This Youtube poster gives a date of 1929 for the recording. He has posted the Japanese release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5kzWkyyCcQ

The recording seems to have been issued/reissued on Victor Red Seal in the US, same catalog numbers and matrix imprints. It had been uploaded to Archive.org but has since been deleted. I got this image from the ghosts that upload left on the Internet.

2025-05-14 16.48.41 duckduckgo.com 6de58149cb48.jpg (46.57 KiB) Viewed 1113 times

I am interested in dating the recording and discovering the date of release of the Japanese three disk set. I cannot find a lot of information in the resources I have tried so far, including Japanese ones.

According to this site -- https://majesticrecord.com/labelsvictor.htm -- the scroll style label was used from 1926-1937. Whether this is true for Japanese Victor?

[drh]

What back then was commonly called "Symphony no. 13" is known as Symphony no. 88 today. It got the same designation for Toscanini's set with the NBCSO, one of their early recordings if not their first to be issued. I have the Krauss set on Electrola (E.W.71-E.W.73) and on US Victor (4189-4191). From the Kelly HMV database (https://www.gramophonecompanydiscography.com/), searched by matrix numbers on the Electrola records:

Side 1 (matrix BA84; issued: take 2 of 3)

Kelly File: File C - BA
Location: Vienna, Austria
Recording date: 1929-06-12
Other:
Title(s): Symphonie in G dur No 88 (Haydn): I,1 - Adagio-Allegro
Issued: 9-994, E539, AA193, AM2280, AV16, EW71
Size: 10-inch
Session Performer(s): WIENER PHILHARMONIKER (CLEMENS KRAUSS)
Recording Notes:
Session Id: 70231Session Group Id: 3032Location Id: 20

Side 2 (matrix BA85; issued: take 2 of 3)

Kelly File: File C - BA
Location: Vienna, Austria
Recording date: 1929-06-13
Other:
Title(s): Symphonie in G dur No 88 (Haydn): I,2
Issued: 9-995, E539, AA193, AM2280, AV16, EW71
Size: 10-inch
Session Performer(s): WIENER PHILHARMONIKER (CLEMENS KRAUSS)
Recording Notes:
Session Id: 70231Session Group Id: 3032Location Id: 20

Side 3 (matrix BA86; issued: take 2 of 2)

Kelly File: File C - BA
Location: Vienna, Austria
Recording date: 1929-06-13
Other:
Title(s): Symphonie in G dur No 88 (Haydn): II,1 - Largo
Issued: 9-996, E540, AA194, AM2281, AV17, EW72
Size: 10-inch
Session Performer(s): WIENER PHILHARMONIKER (CLEMENS KRAUSS)
Recording Notes:
Session Id: 70231Session Group Id: 3032Location Id: 20

Side 4 (matrix BA87; issued: take 2 of 2)

Kelly File: File C - BA
Location: Vienna, Austria
Recording date: 1929-06-13
Other:
Title(s): Symphonie in G dur No 88 (Haydn): II,2
Issued: 9-997, E540, AA194, AM2281, AV17, EW72
Size: 10-inch
Session Performer(s): WIENER PHILHARMONIKER (CLEMENS KRAUSS)
Recording Notes:
Session Id: 70231Session Group Id: 3032Location Id: 20

Side 5 (matrix BA88; issued: take 2 of 2)

Kelly File: File C - BA
Location: Vienna, Austria
Recording date: 1929-06-13
Other:
Title(s): Symphonie in G dur No 88 (Haydn): III - Menuetto - Allegretto
Issued: 9-998, E541, AA195, AM2282, AV18, EW73
Size: 10-inch
Session Performer(s): WIENER PHILHARMONIKER (CLEMENS KRAUSS)
Recording Notes:
Session Id: 70231Session Group Id: 3032Location Id: 20

Side 6 (matrix BA117; issued: take 1 of 1)

Kelly File: File C - BA
Location: Vienna, Austria
Recording date: 1929-07-02
Other:
Title(s): Symphonie in G dur No 88 (Haydn): IV - Finale - Allegro con spirito
Issued: 30-724, E541, AA195, AV18, EW73
Size: 10-inch
Session Performer(s): WIENER PHILHARMONIKER (CLEMENS KRAUSS)
Recording Notes:
Session Id: 70242Session Group Id: 3032Location Id: 20

[Lah Ca]

What back then was commonly called "Symphony no. 13" is known as Symphony no. 88 today. .... From the Kelly HMV database (https://www.gramophonecompanydiscography.com/), searched by matrix numbers on the Electrola records:

Side 1 (matrix BA84; issued: take 2 of 3)
....

Very interesting and most helpful. Thank you.

I searched the Kelly database too. But the information was playing Haydn Seek with me. I found intersections of Haydn and Krauss but did not recognize Symphonie in G dur No 88 as Symphony No. 13. And the Victor catalog numbers turned up nothing. I did not think to try the small almost illegible matrix impressions:

• Upside down VE in an oval (irrelevant for search purposes)
  II (take number, I assume)
  BA 84 / -- slash or triangle, probably triangle (Electrola matrix number)

electrola matrix.jpeg (7.19 KiB) Viewed 1077 times

Again, thank you.

[gramophone-georg]

JVC did indeed use the scroll label later than 1937- I think they used it into the 1940s. That said... the one in the OP looks like a Japanese pressing of an earlier USA or HMV recording. I think the VE in a circle would date it to about 1933 at latest, but the double eccentric stopping grove on a Euro matrix would date to before the stopping groove became a standardized distance from the spindle hole, likely late 31 or early 32. Euro matrices from that point on seemed to use a single rather than double eccentric, where in USA the double eccentric remained into 1940.

[Inigo]

This label has this;

IMG_20250516_142513.jpg (72.98 KiB) Viewed 1041 times

HIGH FIDELITY RECORDING ???

[Lah Ca]

JVC did indeed use the scroll label later than 1937- I think they used it into the 1940s. That said... the one in the OP looks like a Japanese pressing of an earlier USA or HMV recording. I think the VE in a circle would date it to about 1933 at latest, but the double eccentric stopping grove on a Euro matrix would date to before the stopping groove became a standardized distance from the spindle hole, likely late 31 or early 32. Euro matrices from that point on seemed to use a single rather than double eccentric, where in USA the double eccentric remained into 1940.

Thank you.

So the earliest possible release of the JVC/JVTMC disk would be in 1929, some time later than July 2, the last recording date for any of the movements on the record. The latest probable date is "late 31 or early 32," although a later date is possible but less likely.

This is very helpful.

[drh]

...But the information was playing Haydn Seek with me. ...

I find that going by matrix numbers is by far the best way to look things up in Kelly. Glad I could help you unravel the mystery!

[gramophone-georg]

This label has this;
IMG_20250516_142513.jpg
HIGH FIDELITY RECORDING ???

Yes! On a laminated pressing no less. These are odd indeed because it is a 3 record set. The first two discs appear to be dubs because of the European style lead in and stopping grooves, but the third disc is a USA matrix all the way with double stopping groove and the Bluebird catalog numbers scraped off but still visible.
As to why they are "High Fidelity"? No idea. Maybe it was high fidelity as far as JVC was concerned. Maybe it was just hype.

The name of the album is amusing... "Music for Tea Time" by Artie Shaw and his Orchestra, printed in English. The accompanying thick booklet is all in Japanese. Maybe it was a trend to jitterbug over tea at the time. I just have a hard time juxtaposing a proper tea time over Shaw's great swing band rocking out. That's more like happy hour!

[Inigo]