Call BS on this one

[Sidewinder]

Can one call this a Trademark model - I think it is the much later Style 3. Trademark model was the style that was painted by Barraud surely?

seller writes:
Victor Berliner Model A gramophone, also known as the Dog or Trademark Model, circa 1900

Approximately six similar models of this Berliner Model A exist, produced between 1898 and 1904.

This model dates from circa 1902 and is the Spanish version by the Compania Francesa from Barcelona.

The gramophone is in good optical and technical condition. It plays records flawlessly.
The record player is an original Victor Concert Reproducer. The turntable has a newer platter.

Private sale - no guarantee or warranty

[jamiegramo]

You are correct this is a New Style No. 3 (or was sold in Britain as such) and not a trademark model and dates to around 1903-04. The confusion comes as they used up trademark (or technically Style No. 5) cases but with a more powerful motor and a different spring housing with flattened sides. Also a different brake and speed control. On this example you can see the blanking plate covering the hole for the No. 5 speed control.

The Victor Concert soundbox is not technically original. It should be badged as ‘Gramophone & Typewriter’ but Victor badged examples are often easier to find than their European counterparts when the original has gone missing.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/127385611689?_s ... R96T49yuZg

[Steve]

There's nothing wrong with this aside from the soundbox name as Jamie said but that's being pedantic as these continental machines were equipped with whatever was available at the time and I've seen many continental machines with the Victor Concert soundbox, so unless continental owners were especially careless with them or minded to keep these machines past their natural obsolescence with upgraded soundboxes, I doubt so many would be seen now with this soundbox.

The price is very cheap for an early NS3 in this condition too and it appears it is legitimately a "Trademark" in terms of the use of this rather generic term to describe a machine of similar appearance and pedigree as the one in the famous His Master's Voice painting. Continental collectors often refer to it as a Trademark, regardless, undoubtfully due to its natural line of succession from the original simple machines that started it all, so who are we to argue? A collector I once discussed this issue with stated that in his mind the Trademark identical to the painting was the first example and the NS3 effectively the last one.

[CarlosV]

There's nothing wrong with this aside from the soundbox name as Jamie said but that's being pedantic as these continental machines were equipped with whatever was available at the time and I've seen many continental machines with the Victor Concert soundbox, so unless continental owners were especially careless with them or minded to keep these machines past their natural obsolescence with upgraded soundboxes, I doubt so many would be seen now with this soundbox.

The price is very cheap for an early NS3 in this condition too and it appears it is legitimately a "Trademark" in terms of the use of this rather generic term to describe a machine of similar appearance and pedigree as the one in the famous His Master's Voice painting. Continental collectors often refer to it as a Trademark, regardless, undoubtfully due to its natural line of succession from the original simple machines that started it all, so who are we to argue? A collector I once discussed this issue with stated that in his mind the Trademark identical to the painting was the first example and the NS3 effectively the last one.

I totally agree, Steve.

[JerryVan]

...it appears it is legitimately a "Trademark" in terms of the use of this rather generic term to describe a machine of similar appearance and pedigree...

I totally agree. It would seem that "Trademark" would describe a style or class of machine, as the term was never one that the manufacturer officially used.

[jamiegramo]

I never thought of a New Style No. 3 gramophone as a ‘true’ trademark machine, certainly as a trademark ‘style’ machine. That said there are those that don’t consider the Style No. 5 as a trademark machine because it has the bolt style brake. I’ve always found that rather ridiculous, after all there are two styles of brake that pre-date the one shown in the Barraud painting.

[Sidewinder]

Surely we do not do the hobby or ourselves any favors to dilute the designation "trademark", as a term for every similar looking front-mount machine. I have always understood "trademark" to refer to the specific model that appeared in the Barraud painting, and which became the company trademark. Of course the company did not say to Barraud "this machine that you are about to paint we call our trademark model"

[gramophone-georg]

Just my opinion, but to me, the NS No 3 is a "late trademark" machine in that it still closely resembles the one in the painting in more ways than it doesn't. The NS number 4, on the other hand, with the winder offset to one corner and the motor enclosed entirely in the cabinet, does not. I have a DGG top wind machine in a German market only pyramid shaped cabinet in which the spring motor is also entirely enclosed, although the winder is centered at the front of the motorboard like a TM. I have always called it a "German Trademark", but perhaps I should stop doing that.

[Steve]

Just my opinion, but to me, the NS No 3 is a "late trademark" machine in that it still closely resembles the one in the painting in more ways than it doesn't. The NS number 4, on the other hand, with the winder offset to one corner and the motor enclosed entirely in the cabinet, does not. I have a DGG top wind machine in a German market only pyramid shaped cabinet in which the spring motor is also entirely enclosed, although the winder is centered at the front of the motorboard like a TM. I have always called it a "German Trademark", but perhaps I should stop doing that.

Exactly this but also the NS No.3 is the only "early trademark style" machine that has the exact same dimensioned small, plain square wooden case and base board, similar to the painting. The Style 3 had no casing at all but had an exposed motor mounted on its flat base (for cheapness). The Style 4 had a metal casing etc. The No. 5 was the slightly modified "Trademark", which became (with additional mods) the New Style 3 to suit a new pricing schedule, where they initially used up the redundant stocks with single piece base boards before they introduced the mitred type. There is, if you will, a kind of natural progression from the absolute Trademark model to the NS 3 model.

[Oedipus]

The New Style No 3 is just that, because it has a Style No 3 motor, not a 'trade Mark' model motor. However, early New Style 3s do have recycled Style 5 cases - you can see the redundant cut out in the top for the original governor bracket, modified in the No 3 to provide a top bearing for the turntable spindle. The apparently different spring housing is really a simple bridge, as in No 3, but with a nickel-plated zinc outer casing screwed on to the bridge sides.